Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

[cxhansen]

When I bought my Leaf there was no Chademo chargers in Washington State, and I thought I'd never use the fast charging port. Charging at home and/or work means a very pleasant commute, and that was my entire plan at that point. That plan still works, and will work even after the very last Chademo in North America is scrapped.

Yes, I overreacted when I said that nobody should buy a Leaf right now. I can see it being a good fit for a lot of use cases, and hopefully most of ours. But one of the Kia drivers I talked to didn't plan on DC charging much when he got his Soul, but he was in a downward spiral running out of charge mid-day, and then having to DC charge to make it through the day, further degrading the battery. I'd like to avoid that fate.

On that note, a related question: If your daily drive is long enough that you can't keep your battery between 80 and 20% on a single charge (which will happen with my wife's work drive occasionally), is it better to charge it to 100% at home, let it run at less than 20% on the way home, or DC charge somewhere along the way? Of the suboptimal options, I don't have a sense of what is more or less bad.

Thanks for the tips, y'all. I'm learning every day.

 

[OldManCan]

Is there any data confirming that DC charge is really bad for the battery? All other conditions being similar, ie 20% to 80% charge and no overheating due to repeated charging is there any data showing DC charging hurts the battery anymore than L2 charging?

 

[Triggerhappy007]

I wonder if used LEAF sales are increasing as a result of the used EV tax credit? The sale has to be through a dealer and you get a 30% tax credit up to $4,000.

Not in play yet

According to the IRS, it's in play already:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

 

[WetEV]

On that note, a related question: If your daily drive is long enough that you can't keep your battery between 80 and 20% on a single charge (which will happen with my wife's work drive occasionally), is it better to charge it to 100% at home, let it run at less than 20% on the way home, or DC charge somewhere along the way? Of the suboptimal options, I don't have a sense of what is more or less bad.

TLDR: charge to 100% SOC with a timer set to departure time. SOC is State Of Charge


Charging to 100% causes faster "calendar loss", which is time driven. The longer at 100%, the more the loss. (Also high temperature)
So charge to 100% using a timer set for departure time, then drive the car. It will spend very little time at 100%. Especially true in winter, which is when likely more charge will be needed. Low temperatures slow calendar loss. As the LEAF doesn't allow for a lower target SOC, this is easier as well to implement.


Discharging to low SOC increases the rate of "cycling loss", which isn't time driven, at least until you go below 0% real SOC, which the car will not let you get to as the car shuts down at the lower margin (10%? 12% Something like that. I forget). Cycling loss goes up rapidly with lower SOCs.

Also the pilot's rule comes into play... you can never have too much runway in front of you or altitude above terrain or ... meaning for EVs more margin to get home, or more range left after getting home for some necessary trip.

A full answer would need to include exactly how low of SOC the car goes, as cycling loss increases rapidly with lower SOCs, how long and how hot it is at 100% SOC, and more. But it's very clear that battery life will be better with 90%-11% than with 80%-1%, and still better with 100%-21%, as long as you charge right before departure.

 

[goldbrick]

Is there any data confirming that DC charge is really bad for the battery? All other conditions being similar, ie 20% to 80% charge and no overheating due to repeated charging is there any data showing DC charging hurts the battery anymore than L2 charging?

My take is that it comes down to the 'C rate' of the charge (applies to discharge too....). C rate is the power used at any instant divided by the total energy capacity of the battery. So a 10kWh battery being charged or discharged at 10kW would have a C rate of 1. The same battery being discharged or charged at 500 W would experience a C rate of 0.05.

I think it's commonly accepted that a lower C rate is better for a battery than a high one. A DC charge exposes the battery to a higher C rate than a L2 or L1 charge so it is harder on the battery in general. I'm sure there are trade-offs that can be made to alleviate this issue but the easiest way to lower the C rate is to use a larger battery. The other way is to limit the charging power or discharge rate.

 

[SageBrush]

I wonder if used LEAF sales are increasing as a result of the used EV tax credit? The sale has to be through a dealer and you get a 30% tax credit up to $4,000.

Not in play yet

According to the IRS, it's in play already:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

Fair enough -- thanks for the correction.
I was under the impression that this EV credit was handled by the dealership, and not yet in practice. The link you provided has the EV credit being requested when taxes are filed.

 

[SageBrush]

Charging to 100% causes faster "calendar loss", which is time driven. The longer at 100%, the more the loss. (Also high temperature)
So charge to 100% using a timer set for departure time, then drive the car. It will spend very little time at 100%. Especially true in winter, which is when likely more charge will be needed. Low temperatures slow calendar loss. As the LEAF doesn't allow for a lower target SOC, this is easier as well to implement.

Agreed, but there may be an exception here for cold winter folks to be aware of. Lithium plating territory is temperature, C rate, and SoC dependent. I err on the safe side in the care and feeding of my pack, so I don't charge to over 80% SoC if the pack is under 40F. My home charging is 0.15 C rate. A slower charging would allow a higher SoC for the same temperature.

 

[WetEV]

Is there any data confirming that DC charge is really bad for the battery? All other conditions being similar, ie 20% to 80% charge and no overheating due to repeated charging is there any data showing DC charging hurts the battery anymore than L2 charging?

Yes there is.

Quibble: DC charging doesn't cover the cases. Take a LEAF+ with a 60kWh nominal battery. 1C rate charging, just barely fast charging, is 60kW. Many chargers are 50kW will not charge a LEAF+ that fast. I've seen, but not used a 24kW charger. I've read about a 6kW DC charger. Low rate DC charging isn't going to be noticeably different than L2. 6kW AC would be the same as 6kW DC.

Reference:

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ac4b82

figure 6

 

[WetEV]

Agreed, but there may be an exception here for cold winter folks to be aware of. Lithium plating territory is temperature, C rate, and SoC dependent. I err on the safe side in the care and feeding of my pack, so I don't charge to over 80% SoC if the pack is under 40F. My home charging is 0.15 C rate. A slower charging would allow a higher SoC for the same temperature.

Lithium plating is not well understood.

Lithium stripping (the reverse process) even less so.

Lithium plating is the process were Lithium metal is deposited on the anode rather than Lithium ions being absorbed by the anode.

Lots of recent research articles. More plating can occur below 10% SOC than above it, but usually is worse at highest SOCs. Lithium plating at temperature of normal "room" temperatures seems to be the cause of transition from linear to nonlinear aging. Lithium plating is far worse at higher charge rates. Plating/stripping can be reversible, meaning non-destructive, or largely irreversible. Oh, and so much more.

0C seems to be a key temperature, Lithium plating is worse below this. If your car is in a garage that is above freezing, probably not much of an issue. If parked in the driveway in Saskatoon, answer might be different. Might want to charge when getting home, with a warmer battery than before departure, even if that means a longer time at a higher charge level. Audi suggests doing this in cold weather.

But is 90% to 30% worse than 80% to 20%? How about 100% to 40%? At what temperature(s) might the results change, and by how much?


I love getting references. Have any quality ones on this subject that we could apply to this issue?

Here is one for you:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378775317307619

Notice it ignores Lithium stripping.

 

[SageBrush]

I love getting references. Have any quality ones on this subject that we could apply to this issue?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qf17N2lFM3F4pBFSqKfvguxr_ac_3d_-/

Let me know if the link does not work.
This is the article I have been posting graphs from

 

[GaleHawkins]

Yes buying a Leaf maybe make sense for some today.

A new Bolt for under $20K in the USA today is an interesting option I would think as a gateway EV.

When we bought our 2016 Leaf SL with a dying battery in 2019 with 22K miles for $13.5K it was our best EV option plus I wanted a heat pump. Nissan bumping the range from 60 to 150 miles in 2020 was a game changer.

My son was on my case to get a 2023 Tesla Model Y dual motor long range the day before Elon Musk cut my price by $20,500.00

At 2 am 14 January 2023 I ordered the Model Y dual motor long range with options of Metallic Blue and the 3500 pound software/hardware tow package at a net price of $47.500.00 so that ruled the Ariya.

Bottom line I think getting one's first EV that one can afford is a good thing for the future because you learn so much so fast.

Having old Nissan's for 50 years now they traditionally have been a day late and a dollar short keeping their cars current but they were always solid. Transportation for me in the Leaf still is awesome.

 

[SageBrush]

A new Bolt for under $20K in the USA today is an interesting option I would think as a gateway EV.

That is the price before the dealer grabs his cut of the EV tax credit and adds on a host of garbage fees. When all is said and done most people are going to pay close to $25k for the base model. Still an excellent value for a 250 EPA mile EV with battery thermal control. I was reviewing pack degradation stats available so far (about 5 years) and it appears that the pack will retain 80% of new range at 15 years unless the owner is abusive.

Since the Bolt is really designed to be an extended commuter, it serves that function extremely well, for a long time. I bet the car craps out before the range decrease becomes a problem.

 

[OldManCan]

A new Bolt for under $20K in the USA today is an interesting option I would think as a gateway EV.

That is the price before the dealer grabs his cut of the EV tax credit and adds on a host of garbage fees. When all is said and done most people are going to pay close to $25k for the base model. Still an excellent value for a 250 EPA mile EV with battery thermal control. I was reviewing pack degradation stats available so far (about 5 years) and it appears that the pack will retain 80% of new range at 15 years unless the owner is abusive.

Since the Bolt is really designed to be an extended commuter, it serves that function extremely well, for a long time. I bet the car craps out before the battery.

Agreed Bolt is the best value for $ right now however a better deal might be to buy a used Bolt with brand new battery since they were all recalled last year to address the battery fire issue. Potential exists to get a near brand new battery car for much less now that the used prices are coming down.

 

[SageBrush]

Potential exists to get a near brand new battery car for much less now that the used prices are coming down.

I doubt it, but by all means post if you find something.

 

[Flyct]

Yes buying a Leaf maybe make sense for some today.

A new Bolt for under $20K in the USA today is an interesting option I would think as a gateway EV.

When we bought our 2016 Leaf SL with a dying battery in 2019 with 22K miles for $13.5K it was our best EV option plus I wanted a heat pump. Nissan bumping the range from 60 to 150 miles in 2020 was a game changer.

My son was on my case to get a 2023 Tesla Model Y dual motor long range the day before Elon Musk cut my price by $20,500.00

At 2 am 14 January 2023 I ordered the Model Y dual motor long range with options of Metallic Blue and the 3500 pound software/hardware tow package at a net price of $47.500.00 so that ruled the Ariya.

Bottom line I think getting one's first EV that one can afford is a good thing for the future because you learn so much so fast.

Having old Nissan's for 50 years now they traditionally have been a day late and a dollar short keeping their cars current but they were always solid. Transportation for me in the Leaf still is awesome.

I've owned 5 Nissan Leafs, 2015,2018,2019, 2020, 2023.

In September last year I ordered a Tesla Model Y Long Range, which arrived 12/15 (Before the big price cut but with a $3750 cut and 10,000 miles of free Super Charger usage)

On 2/10/23 I ordered a pre-production Model Y/AWD with 279 miles range for the wife for a net price $42,500 after credits.

Supercharger infrastructure is the gold standard. They make traveling an non-issue. I really like the car but hate the man.

Tesla comes with a J1772 adaptor and I will be buying the CSS1 Adaptor. When Tesla no longer comes with is a ESVE or any moble charger. You have to but the mobile L2 "charger" connector for $225 or the Wall connector for $400

 

[SageBrush]

On 2/10/23 I ordered a pre-production Model Y/AWD with 279 miles range for the wife for a net price $42,500 after credits.

I view that car as the sweet spot, the cream of the crop at a reasonable price. I'm pretty darn satisfied with our Bolt, but If I ever have reason to own two cars again I think the Tesla your wife chose will be my choice also. Or I might just swap the Bolt for that Model Y next year when my income increases enough to take advantage of the EV tax credit.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have seen more than that in my LEAF

How much more, for how long, and at what pack temp and SoC ?

I do agree though that the question is moot in the face of CHAdeMO infrastructure not being over 200 Amps (if that). And without liquid cooling, any thoughts of a meaningfully faster charging session is a no go anyway. As is, how long does 70+ kW continue ? A minute ?

Did the new Freewire in town and hit 207 amps 77 KW. Not bad for a cold pack. Best charging speed I've seen since Vancouver EA before they dialed down Chademo.

FYI; one possible issue with Nissan BMS is cold weather treatment during charging. Near full speed is still seen when the pack is cold. The only change is the SOC of the charge rate knee. The colder the pack, the sooner the drop in current. Now this might not be true in all cases but its true for my kind of cold. Pack temps high 40's

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Nice.

On my road trips with multiple DC stops, I rarely see more than 60-65KW, even with a temperate battery, yet I can pretty regularly get upper 70s from the local evgo station.

I wonder if the battery temp is less uniform (high spread between top and bottom), whether that reduces what the battery will request.

 

[SageBrush]

Did the new Freewire in town and hit 207 amps 77 KW.

For how long ?

As an aside, I find these kW numbers that you and Doug post to be pretty much worthless, and likely to deceive the unwary new EV shopper. Please consider posting average kW, and state the starting and ending SoC. For extra points post the pack temperature.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I didn't have quote enough time tonight to do a 20-80% charge test and it was raining, but here is a 20-60% test based on dash SoC. We know that's cheating a bit because of how the Leaf buffers, but still I didn't think too bad. 20 minutes and a few seconds to 60%.

Guessing to get to 80% would take 15 minutes more as rate drifted from mid 40s (KW) to mid 30s.

A Bolt EUV was next to me charging. They started at 30% and 45 min later were at 70% charging at a blazing 28KW. Even earlier at 51% the Bolt was only charging at 35KW. Another 10-15 minutes and I think I would have caught them. The Bolt charges like a rapidgating Leaf.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DRTV-vv0QJ23Jb6Eb282UxqVlTr0hwiD/view?usp=drivesdk

https://youtu.be/hRs8N560wh8

I do have a growing curiosity whether the temp divergence causes the charge rate to slow early. Starting temp was only 53F so not ideal, but still recieved nearly full juice. I have charged at a higher starting SoC and had a higher rate at comparative %. Even after 10 min, the delta between low and high temp moved from 3F to over 10F.