Will you cancel your purchase without a capacity warranty?

[planet4ever]

Like others have said - no big deal. Just don't charge it to 100% unless you know you need 100% charge the next day. The charge timer settings make this easy to do in the car and I'm sure you'll be able to do this from your phone as well in case your plans change and you're not next to the car.

On the contrary, I can envision the charge timer aggravating the problem. Possible scenario:

Say we are leaving on a two week long vacation for which we are flying. The battery is at 25% when I get home Friday night, so I plug it in. The timer has a standing order to charge between midnight and 7 AM, because that is when my electric rates are the lowest.

It would appear that starting Saturday, for a period of 16 days, through Sunday two weeks later, the battery charge is going to drop a wee bit each day. At midnight each night the EVSE will be electronically "plugged in" by the timer, and bring the battery back up to maximum allowed charge.

Oh, and yes, some time after we leave on our vacation I do finally realize this must be happening, but [true fact] I don't have any kind of a smart phone.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Poll needs a new option: Lease!
If I wasn't convinced before, I am now.

 

[DaveEV]

On the contrary, I can envision the charge timer aggravating the problem. Possible scenario:

Say we are leaving on a two week long vacation for which we are flying. The battery is at 25% when I get home Friday night, so I plug it in. The timer has a standing order to charge between midnight and 7 AM, because that is when my electric rates are the lowest.

It would appear that starting Saturday, for a period of 16 days, through Sunday two weeks later, the battery charge is going to drop a wee bit each day. At midnight each night the EVSE will be electronically "plugged in" by the timer, and bring the battery back up to maximum allowed charge.

This is such a common scenario, that I'd have a hard time believing that Nissan didn't think of it.

In fact, if were EVDRIVER and made EV pizza bets - I'd bet that the car won't automatically top off for as long as it's plugged in until the charge falls below some threshold - far enough to avoid significant battery wear.

But even then - just set the default timer to only charge the car to 95% full by default. Problem solved and you avoid the critical 98%+ charge level that the quick reference says will void your warranty if you leave it there too long.

 

[LEAFfan]

IMHO the whole battery capacity worry is just FUD

I agree! I see no need for this survey (no offense) since the warranty clearly states "gradual" capacity loss is what is NOT covered. I interpret that based on what Nissan has said as no more than 70% capacity loss after 8 years, and that is what is expected. So if your battery capacity goes to 70% or lower in 1,2,3,4,5,6, or 7 years it is covered. This is a GREAT warranty!

 

[LEAFfan]

GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty. See your OWNER’S MANUAL for important tips on how to maximize the life and capacity of the “Lithium-ion battery.”

When is a loss in capacity not gradual? Are they providing a capacity loss curve that shows us what normal is and also what is not normal, and would be covered.

Basically if a cell fails from MFG defect it will be covered as long as it is not abused. Your pack can loos 100% capacity and you are out of luck. Also, those that live in AZ and park in a hot garage may have their warranty voided if the temp exceeds 120 on one day. 120 is not exactly that hot. This warranty only covers defects, that's not very encouraging since that is the bare minimum warranty on most products.

LOL, you've overstepped your expertise. In over 13 years here in AZ, I've been in some high heat and the garages NEVER reached 120 or even close to that. Secondly, if your pack loses 100% or even 20% in the first year (assuming it wasn't abused), it is COVERED under Nissan's battery warranty. What part of "gradual/normal" don't some of you understand? And I'll bet ya a pizza on it! If you bet, this will be the first one you've lost.

 

[palmermd]

IMHO the whole battery capacity worry is just FUD

I agree! I see no need for this survey (no offense) since the warranty clearly states "gradual" capacity loss is what is NOT covered. I interpret that based on what Nissan has said as no more than 70% capacity loss after 8 years, and that is what is expected. So if your battery capacity goes to 70% or lower in 1,2,3,4,5,6, or 7 years it is covered. This is a GREAT warranty!

I realize that they have been saying that all along, I just don't understand why they did not put the 70% in 8 years in writing in the warranty. They don't even have to be as complicated as putting in the curve if they say that they warranty guarantees 70% of original capacity for 8 years assuming that you have not abused the pack as noted.

Don't misunderstand my position on the batteries, I have total confidence in this style of battery. In fact I just spent $8000 on a lithium battery pack for my current EV as an upgrade from lead acid. I have no worries that this pack should have better than 70% of the original capacity after 8 years. I have no concerns that there is no active cooling system. I have no worries that Nissan will not back up legitimate capacity claims for warranty repairs if they are extreme. I do have a concern if the pack has a mild capacity issue (right at the 70% of original) due to the wording of the warranty. They wrote the warranty with only the word "gradual" in the text and they never defined gradual. This leaves the claim up to interpretation, and will be up to the discretion of the service shop that you take the car to. If they simply define gradual as a 30% loss over the course of the warranty period, I'd be perfectly happy.

I also realize that this could also work against me. If Nissan put the wording in this way because they wanted to repair the pack at some other capacity loss (say 20%) but did not want to lock themselves in, then by changing and locking into 30% I may have inadvertently reduced the warranty. I'm not too concerned about this, and Nissan can update the wording on the warranty to cover at any point they see fit and can also word it such that they can cover it earlier if they feel it is needed. However it is updated, I just hope it is worded better than "gradual".

 

[charlie1300]

"Gradual capacity loss" is intentionally vague, and doesn't mean 80% or 70% - That was Mark Perry talking to the press, which means nothing in terms of a warranty. The warranty document would need to explicitly say 80% over 5 years or 70% over 8 years and it doesn't, and IMHO it will never say that. Just look at all the variables listed by posters in this thread that impact the capacity over time. How would you write a warranty that takes all that into consideration?

After a few years of real world experience, there will be a comfort level of how long the battery pack will retain a useful capacity. This could by why Mark Perry said he expected most of the early adopters to lease.

 

[smkettner]

80% in 5 years might be the expectation. However I would not expect a warranty adjustment if the capacity was as low as 40% in 5 years as long as it was gradual.
Now if it was 90% at 48 months and 40% at 50 months that might be a claim. This is the reason for the annual battery inspection.... to document what is gradual.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Basically if a cell fails from MFG defect it will be covered as long as it is not abused. Your pack can loos 100% capacity and you are out of luck. Also, those that live in AZ and park in a hot garage may have their warranty voided if the temp exceeds 120 on one day. 120 is not exactly that hot. This warranty only covers defects, that's not very encouraging since that is the bare minimum warranty on most products.[/quote]

LOL, you've overstepped your expertise. In over 13 years here in AZ, I've been in some high heat and the garages NEVER reached 120 or even close to that. Secondly, if your pack loses 100% or even 20% in the first year (assuming it wasn't abused), it is COVERED under Nissan's battery warranty. What part of "gradual/normal" don't some of you understand? And I'll bet ya a pizza on it! If you bet, this will be the first one you've lost. [/quote]

I lived in AZ as well and believe it or not a garage can exceed that temp, not everyone parks in a traditional insulated garage and some are shared with multiple vehicles with hot ice engines and other heart creating devices, it's not common but they do exist, I know of two in Scottsdale. Regardless, you choose to ignore facts, there is absolutely no capacity warranty on the Leaf whatsoever. NONE. You seem to think that you wishful interpretation constitutes a capacity warranty but it does not. If you don't believe me ask Nissan to put your assumption in writing. For two years I worked with one of the largest OEM/aftermarket warranty underwriter/providers and I can assure your that unless there is a specific capacity percentage and term associated to that capacity you have no coverage. I know what gradual and normal mean, in this case it indicates that your pack capacity will gradually decline under normal conditions. That is a statement of non-specific fact that has NOTHING to do with any form of capacity warranty no matter how much wishful interpretation you assign to the words. If you do believe the facts of the warranty ask Nissan to put your assumptions in writing, they won't. As I said before, if a pack loses even 20% in the first year Nissan will likely replace it in good faith, that is NOT a warranty. The fact is if you baby your pack and it looses 30% in three years they MAY replace it but they don't need to replace ANY pack that looses capacity because the warranty specifically states it is NOT covered, it only states what you can EXPECT and that is not up to interpretation. The warranty calls out that capacity in specifically not covered, you should read that sentence again because it is very clear and contractually binding regardless if they say it should gradually decline only 10% over 10 years, it simply is irrelevant.


In fact the warranty can say you should not lose more than 1% over eight years and you lose 30% in year one, guess what? You are not covered because the warranty says so. The ONLY thing the pack warranty covers is if a cell or module goes bad under what they deem "normal" conditions. Those are that facts at this point, please do not mislead others with false interpretations of what you "think" is covered.


PS- I am buying and not leasing and I have built many EV packs so I know what to expect from a pack like this like PalmerMD, other people may have much higher expectations or false interpretations of the warranty. People should decide based on the facts not speculation.

 

[walterbays]

On the contrary, I can envision the charge timer aggravating the problem. Possible scenario:

Say we are leaving on a two week long vacation for which we are flying..

This is such a common scenario, that I'd have a hard time believing that Nissan didn't think of it.

You could just turn off automatic charging before you leave. There's a button to the left of the steering wheel whose icon looks like it could be on/off for timed charging. This is like now: I turn off smart entry on my Prius before I leave so that extended RFID polling in the airport parking lot won't discharge my accessory battery, fruitlessly searching for my key fob.

 

[EVDRIVER]

n some vehicles they are not always hot, I remember my GF needing to turn her key on to get it to work.

 

[LakeLeaf]

This is like now: I turn off smart entry on my Prius before I leave so that extended RFID polling in the airport parking lot won't discharge my accessory battery, fruitlessly searching for my key fob.

Not to divert the wonderfully entertaining thread - but how do you turn off the smart entry on the Prius? Do you then need to use the metal key for access, re-enable to start? I've missed this whole idea in the Prius forums.

 

[garygid]

How many of the people here have ANY extended experience at all with the LEAF's type of Li battery cells (not other Li-chemistry types)? None, right?

How much experience do we have with the BMS that the LEAF has? Again, none, I think, because we can only guess what it might do, and have hope that it would well-protect the battery pack and cells. Peehaps it is not as "protective" as we would hope.

If I cannot even charge back to the top of the "usable" capacity (assuming something like 90% of total capacity) each night without damaging the battery, what CAN we charge to?

Why doesn't the LEAF give us any easy (even as a default) way to do that?

 

[DaveEV]

Not to divert the wonderfully entertaining thread - but how do you turn off the smart entry on the Prius?

On the Gen 2 Prius, there's a button underneath the steering wheel. Not sure if they moved it for the Gen 3 Prius.

Do you then need to use the metal key for access, re-enable to start? I've missed this whole idea in the Prius forums.

No, you just need to use the button on the FOB to open the doors, and then stick the FOB into the "key" slot. The mechanical key is only used to open the doors if the accessory battery is completely dead.

If I cannot even charge back to the top of the "usable" capacity (assuming something like 90% of total capacity) each night without damaging the battery, what CAN we charge to?

Uh, you CAN charge to 100% every time you plug it in - unless you repeatedly do it when the battery is already at 98%+ capacity it's not considered abuse.

Why doesn't the LEAF give us any easy (even as a default) way to do that?

It does and has already been covered ad-infinitum.

 

[JPVLeaf]

PS- I am buying and not leasing and I have built many EV packs so I know what to expect from a pack like this like PalmerMD, other people may have much higher expectations or false interpretations of the warranty. People should decide based on the facts not speculation.

So, could you share if you voted 'yes', 'no' or 'unsure' on the poll?
Reading this and your other posts on this topic, I cannot tell for sure.

 

[Yodrak]

I'm with evnow. The main reason I plan to lease - for the first time in my life - are the many unknowns, and one of those unknowns is the longevity of the battery pack and how Nissan will warrant it. Like evnow I feel comfortable that for 3 years the battery will be good, or it will be take care of.

So, I can't cancel a purchase that I don't plan to make.

Leasing does not solve the issue of reduce range and some people that are going to lease still may cancel on range expectations and need.

I don't expect major capacity reduction in 3 years - so don't care about capacity warranty.

 

[ttweed]

So, I can't cancel a purchase that I don't plan to make.

I don't think the intention of this poll was to ask whether the warranty as stated will drive you to lease vs. purchase, was it? It was to ask if the current wording would drive you away from the car entirely, no? Technically speaking, you can purchase the car or you can purchase a lease. They are still both purchases, correct? Perhaps the poll is not perfectly precise in its semantics, and should say something like "will you still make a deal for the car," but for it to be useful, you can't differentiate between lease and purchase in that way, I don't think. The question was clear to me as--"Is the lack of capacity warranty a deal-breaker for you?" I still don't know whether I will lease or purchase, but I am leaning towards lease with this new warranty language. I still answered "no" on the survey. Am I misinterpreting the OP's intention?

TT

 

[Yodrak]

I don't think the intention of this poll was to ask whether the warranty as stated will drive you to lease vs. purchase, was it?

I don't think so either, as it wasn't the question that was asked.

It was to ask if the current wording would drive you away from the car entirely, no?

That isn't the question that was asked, either.

Technically speaking, you can purchase the car or you can purchase a lease. They are still both purchases, correct?

No

Perhaps the poll is not perfectly precise in its semantics, and should say something like "will you still make a deal for the car," but for it to be useful, you can't differentiate between lease and purchase in that way, I don't think. The question was clear to me as--"Is the lack of capacity warranty a deal-breaker for you?"

The question was clear to me also - "Will you cancel your purchase without a capacity warranty?"

I'm not a mind reader, I have to go by what the author wrote and trust that what he wrote was what he meant. If everybody were to assume that he meant something different from what he wrote the poll would be even more useless with everyone answering a different question of their own making.

I still don't know whether I will lease or purchase, but I am leaning towards lease with this new warranty language. I still answered "no" on the survey. Am I misinterpreting the OP's intention?

Only he can answer that question. If he does, and the answer is that your interpretation is correct, I will be able to vote!

 

[EVDRIVER]

Sorry- What I meant was exactly what I wrote, will you cancel regardless of the means of payment. I know many think a lease is a solution but I wanted to know how many see this a deal breaker for getting the car at all.

 

[ttweed]

Only he can answer that question. If he does, and the answer is that your interpretation is correct, I will be able to vote!

Sorry- What I meant was exactly what I wrote, will you cancel regardless of the means of payment. I know many think a lease is a solution but I wanted to know how many see this a deal breaker for getting the car at all.

I believe you're up, Yodrak. Or we can split more hairs over some other semantics of his latest statement.... :roll:

TT