Will you cancel your purchase without a capacity warranty?

[garygid]

If it is a deal-beaker for MANY, then perhaps Nissan will re-think the capacity warranty.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The poll is to see if you will not buy or lease period. Some won't want to buy and some won't want to even lease because of concern over reduced range or whatever. The question is about not getting the car at all.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Sorry- What I meant was exactly what I wrote, will you cancel regardless of the means of payment. I know many think a lease is a solution but I wanted to know how many see this a deal breaker for getting the car at all.

It is certainly a deal breaker for me. Sorry Nissan, but I have to have a warranty that clearly states what is and isn't covered. This should have been out long before you asked people to order. It's too bad for you that dealers across the country are now trying to get rid of 2010 models to make room for new vehicles, and that because of the economy, are heavily discounting those cars. Some simply can't wait to see what you intend to finally do. Being cagey and clever isn't the answer. A legally binding warranty is well past due. What exactly is an 8 year / 100000 mile warranty for an Leaf?

As this thread has clearly demonstrated - exactly how do you warranty such a vehicle? Do you use some type of graph of maximal acceptable lost capacity? How to you then know if there is been some type of "abuse" that has caused excessive loss? How do you protect both yourself and the consumer in a manner that all parties feel they have a legal position from which to argue should something go wrong?

Will this issue turn out to be the Achilles heal of the main stream production version of the electric vehicle? While lots of the enthusiasts on here will have no issue purchasing without a more formal warranty then we know about right now, I doubt Ma and Pa America will be so forgiving. If the EV is eventually to take a prominent place in our garages, it seems that it may not be the actual technology that will determine it's success, but perhaps the lawyers.

Probably should have seen this coming, but I didn't quite understand how much of an issue this would be. Perhaps Nissan has underestimated too.

 

[garygid]

I agree, something critical and this expensive needs to have a decent warranty. Would you buy an EV for almost $38,000 out the door that only went 50 miles, and even then only in ideal conditions, and could drop to 20 miles in a year?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Sorry- What I meant was exactly what I wrote, will you cancel regardless of the means of payment. I know many think a lease is a solution but I wanted to know how many see this a deal breaker for getting the car at all.

It is certainly a deal breaker for me. Sorry Nissan, but I have to have a warranty that clearly states what is and isn't covered. This should have been out long before you asked people to order. It's too bad for you that dealers across the country are now trying to get rid of 2010 models to make room for new vehicles, and that because of the economy, are heavily discounting those cars. Some simply can't wait to see what you intend to finally do. Being cagey and clever isn't the answer. A legally binding warranty is well past due. What exactly is an 8 year / 100000 mile warranty for an Leaf?

As this thread has clearly demonstrated - exactly how do you warranty such a vehicle? Do you use some type of graph of maximal acceptable lost capacity? How to you then know if there is been some type of "abuse" that has caused excessive loss? How do you protect both yourself and the consumer in a manner that all parties feel they have a legal position from which to argue should something go wrong?

Will this issue turn out to be the Achilles heal of the main stream production version of the electric vehicle? While lots of the enthusiasts on here will have no issue purchasing without a more formal warranty then we know about right now, I doubt Ma and Pa America will be so forgiving. If the EV is eventually to take a prominent place in our garages, it seems that it may not be the actual technology that will determine it's success, but perhaps the lawyers.

Probably should have seen this coming, but I didn't quite understand how much of an issue this would be. Perhaps Nissan has underestimated too.

I appreciate your candor. One thing I have really learned in my years of EV driving and in the community is that many buyers want an EV so badly that they at times throw common sense aside and believe everything will be just fine with the pack, this happens again and again. Those people often change their tune down the road when the love wears off and they feel upset and cheated and then sometimes foolish. This is a challenging situation but even if the packs do very well I can promise you that there will be countless people with sour faces wanting more capacity then they expected and it will be less than they thought. The reality is the warranty is no better than any other bare bones warranty that covers defects only, where Nissan draws the line should be interesting but I can assure you as it stands there will be many upset customers, even with good warranties this happens. Perhaps we will be pleasantly surprised, but it will be a tough sell for the informed or experienced. I don't blame Nissan though, this is all a huge risk but everyone should buy with their eyes open and know that EVs are great fun in any form.

 

[garygid]

I flew Hot Air Balloons, and the slow, silent drifting was Fantastic. Of course, the burners roared like a dragon when they were on.

I loved the silence of sailplanes ... but got a bit green when I had to circle in a thermal. But the silent soaring was magnificant.

I love the peace and stillness of the High Sierra mountains when the air is fresh and clear. However, I cannot carry a backpack over mountain passes like I did years ago.

The all-electric motorcycle is splendid, and I can recharge almost anywhere, but it is a bit dangerous with all the traffic around here. It would be really great in the country.

Now, would I really enjoy a good, quiet "car" (EV) ride in the country. If I am fortunate enough to get one, I suspect I will really, really enjoy it.

So, I still hope to buy (or lease) a LEAF.

However, even if I cannot get one, I intend to try and help others learn to use the EV for all the splendor that a quiet ride offers. I want to be part of making the transition from Noise to Serenity, and unnecessary Stress to Peaceful e-roaming.

 

[planet4ever]

Great post, Gary! I haven't had your experiences, except for the High Sierras, but I ache for the same thing.

 

[blobm]

At least in the USA you are being offered an 8 year warranty, in the UK it appears that we are only going to be given a 5 year warranty - with all the same vague conditions! Regards Bob.

 

[mitch672]

At least in the USA you are being offered an 8 year warranty, in the UK it appears that we are only going to be given a 5 year warranty - with all the same vague conditions! Regards Bob.

That's not all I've heard, besides the 5 year warranty in Europe, its also 100K KM (notice Kilometer, not miles),
that translates to 62137 miles. All in all, Nissan is not being very generous in Europe.

I need to give credit to the source , heard this on an episode of the "Transport Evolved" podcast, they also do another one called "TWIE" (This Week In Energy), which is also very good.

http://www.transportevolved.com/

http://www.thisweekinenergy.tv/

 

[ttweed]

OK, how does the news that there will be a "capacity curve" document included in the warranty (as posted in this thread by evnow) change the dynamics of this poll?

TT

 

[garygid]

Yes, ... maybe ...
After we see the curve and see if it is just showing us "expected" capacity, or if there is new, usable warranty verbage associated with it.

 

[Yodrak]

Thanks for clarifying, I will vote accordingly.

Sorry- What I meant was exactly what I wrote, will you cancel regardless of the means of payment. I know many think a lease is a solution but I wanted to know how many see this a deal breaker for getting the car at all.

 

[garygid]

Assuming the "unsure" end up split, about one quarter will drop out. That would leaf quite a few orphans.

I sincerely hope Nissan comes through with something better.

As a minimum, perhaps they "fix" any "loss" more than 10 + M/2 percent (M is number of months). That's 10% loss initially and a total of 40% loss after 5 years. Not really GOOD, but better than NOTHING.

Much BETTER might be 3% initially and M/3 (23% in 5 years).

But, if we are to "expect" 20% to 30% loss in 5 (or 7?) years, we might need QC stations closer together?

 

[LakeLeaf]

From the warranty booklet the Michael and Jay posted:

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting
from or caused by:
...
Use of incompatible charging devices.
...


I hope this doesn't mean we are going back to the "only AV" charging solutions.

It sure would be nice to have this reworded along the lines of "non-standards compliant" rather then incompatible. It seems that "incompatible" is a pretty subjective term which could come into play for anyone without the AV unit. I am certainly not going to pay AV $3200 to do a $200 install.

 

[EVDRIVER]

From the warranty booklet the Michael and Jay posted:

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting
from or caused by:
...
Use of incompatible charging devices.
...


I hope this doesn't mean we are going back to the "only AV" charging solutions.

It sure would be nice to have this reworded along the lines of "non-standards compliant" rather then incompatible. It seems that "incompatible" is a pretty subjective term which could come into play for anyone without the AV unit. I am certainly not going to pay AV $3200 to do a $200 install.

Never going to happen, be enforced or could be proven. this is nonsense language to protect against idiots that stick 500V into the inlet. I would like to see one person here or anywhere name one way a non-approved, defective or broken EVSE could do any harm to a Leaf. It's like saying an extension cord will damage a light.

 

[smkettner]

From the warranty booklet the Michael and Jay posted:

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting
from or caused by:
...
Use of incompatible charging devices.
...


I hope this doesn't mean we are going back to the "only AV" charging solutions.

It sure would be nice to have this reworded along the lines of "non-standards compliant" rather then incompatible. It seems that "incompatible" is a pretty subjective term which could come into play for anyone without the AV unit. I am certainly not going to pay AV $3200 to do a $200 install.

Incompatible would be using a charger other than the onboard Leaf charger or a home made L3.

L2 charging dock just supplies power, it is not a charger.

 

[ttweed]

Now that the first Leaf has been delivered and Gudy has reported that the capacity aspect of the warranty is 60% at 8 years, how does this change the dynamic for people on this poll? Is a 40% loss over the 8 year life of the battery acceptable for most of you or not?

TT

 

[mwalsh]

Is a 40% loss over the 8 year life of the battery acceptable for most of you or not?

Think you need the qualifier possible. But if that's the worst case.....acceptable.

 

[LBCev]

Now that the first Leaf has been delivered and Gudy has reported that the capacity aspect of the warranty is 60% at 8 years, how does this change the dynamic for people on this poll? Is a 40% loss over the 8 year life of the battery acceptable for most of you or not?

TT

Frankly, I'm disappointed with Gudy's reported real world range and have begun having some serious second thoughts, especially when factoring in a 40% degradation. While I only drive an average of 40 miles roundtrip per day, there is the rare occasion where I have to go to LA after work, bumping my commute to about 85 miles. Until there is sufficient public charging infrastructure available I simply wouldn't be able to accomplish this in a single day with a new LEAF - even if I trickle charge at work. Also, my wife commutes about 70 miles a day at freeway speeds, and while she would not be the primary driver of the LEAF I had always supposed she could use it in a pinch. Maybe initially she could, but could she in one year? How about in five? I love the car and it is a blast to drive but I think that it would have to get an 85 mile range, at freeway speeds (65-70 mph) with climate control on for me to feel confident about my purchase. If a new LEAF cannot do this, I'm apt to call it off and wait for gen two.

Sitting on the fence...

 

[EVDRIVER]

Now that the first Leaf has been delivered and Gudy has reported that the capacity aspect of the warranty is 60% at 8 years, how does this change the dynamic for people on this poll? Is a 40% loss over the 8 year life of the battery acceptable for most of you or not?

TT

Frankly, I'm disappointed with Gudy's reported real world range and have begun having some serious second thoughts, especially when factoring in a 40% degradation. While I only drive an average of 40 miles roundtrip per day, there is the rare occasion where I have to go to LA after work, bumping my commute to about 85 miles. Until there is sufficient public charging infrastructure available I simply wouldn't be able to accomplish this in a single day with a new LEAF - even if I trickle charge at work. Also, my wife commutes about 70 miles a day at freeway speeds, and while she would not be the primary driver of the LEAF I had always supposed she could use it in a pinch. Maybe initially she could, but could she in one year? How about in five? I love the car and it is a blast to drive but I think that it would have to get an 85 mile range, at freeway speeds (65-70 mph) with climate control on for me to feel confident about my purchase. If a new LEAF cannot do this, I'm apt to call it off and wait for gen two.

Sitting on the fence...

There is no surprise on his range and those in areas with hills will even see less, this has been pretty much stated since the beginning of this forum. I mentioned early on before any data on the car was released that about 70 miles was a fair estimate for freeway driving at 65-70 and that is decent for an EV of this weight and aero. There is no magic about the Leaf that makes it do better than any other EV and early on people thought it could do 100 miles on a pack with a total capacity of 24 kwh, no way. Now it is confirmed the usable is 24 kwh which is no surprise again. A capacity warranty of 60% is poor at best and I did not expect Nissan to warranty even a 20% decrease after three years, that makes me wonder about the pack quality control and or the ease of degrading the pack based on use habits. Time will tell but the warranty remains completely in Nissan's favor which is typical auto makers.

SInce day one I figured they would have a poor capacity warranty and as a long=term EV driver I knew what to expect in real-world range. Nissan likes to state that the pack should have at least 80% capacity after 5 years but they won't even put that in writing for 3 years with conditions.No surprise here as well but there is certainly a reason for that. This is why I say the 8 year warranty is a bit silly other than for defects which would only cost them failed modules.