SageBrush
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:09 pm

lpickup wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:37 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:57 pm
The average Teslafi degradation is 6.7% on my ODO (10mo old car 29k km) So I’d say my examples are pretty on point.
If the average is already ~7% capacity loss, there must be alot of people above 10% loss also.
I think this is a relative newbie that hasn't had enough time with the car to determine that, like the LEAF, there is an initial drop-off of capacity that flattens out significantly.

Of course I just went to check my own report...it's a bit hard to determine what my loss actually is because while my car nominally started out at 310 miles of range (and TeslaFi actually estimated 315 miles in my earliest reports), a software update was rolled out to my car that extended that range to 325 miles, resulting in a TeslaFi estimate of 318.25 miles. At 13K miles I had my then highest range estimate at 319.66, and then it fell to 297.76 miles in January of this year at about 20K miles. But then, who knows why, but my capacity has recovered, and the latest estimate at 24K miles is now 319.97. So my battery has actually GAINED capacity! Even if you go with a theoretical 325 mile range when new, that's still 1.5% capacity loss on a 2 year old car.
My car has done almost exactly the same battery capacity dance, and it now calculates out to 320 miles range at 27 months, 25k miles.
Your breath is wasted on doug. He lurks at TMC until he finds an anecdote that matches his desire to view Tesla in a negative light and trolls here with his 'finding.' If that was not pathetic enough, often he does not understand what he is reading and the 'negative' report is something else.

By the way -- battery capacity measurements are pack temperature dependent. Range in a cold pack will be decreased. I've learned to check battery capacity ONCE a year. In part because it is a very good battery and more frequent checks are a waste of time, and in part to keep environmental variables similar across the trend points. Spring and Autumn checks (for those who just *have* to check more often) would also work OK
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:38 pm

Sagebrush, come on now. I read on many different car forums, not just Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, etc.. If my wife would have said yes, I would also be a Tesla driver (at least for 1 of our cars). She hated the experience though, so that is history. I have said many times that the tech in Tesla is amazing. (though not a fan of the minimalist interior, I believe it to be more about Tesla's strategy to reduce cost from the cars than a desired design).

The reason why I posted the clip, was that the owner was stating that of the cars at his/her age/miles, that was the average for Teslafi cars tracked. It felt high for what is generally published in terms of Tesla degradation, but it was across a population, so I took it with more weight. Anecdotes from this board taken into consideration, the Teslafi is across a population (not sure how big for this data point), but it seemed to align to the available data on the newer Leaf battery, which I think is interesting. (Similar to how the 90kWh battery has has issues similar to the Leaf 30). Do either of you use Teslfi? If so, what does the app show you in terms of where your cars are in the spectrum for your age/mileage?

While anecdotal, it does feel like the SR+ variant of the Tesla M3 get's more noise than the LR variant in terms of range loss. Part of that is you care less when you lose a little off of a longer range (no different than a 24 Leaf vs. a 62 Leaf), part of it could be increased cycles, but it feels too early for that to be seen. Its more likely a quality process focused on output vs. narrow control.

It is also interesting that there is not nearly as much noise from the Bolt and Kona/Niro world on battery loss either. Its too early to tell completely, but it does feel like they may have the best batteries (admittedly with lower DC charge rates) out there from a consistency standpoint.

This is a Leaf forum, so I will pull things back to a Leaf comparison at times.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

cwerdna
Posts: 11319
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:06 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:38 pm
It is also interesting that there is not nearly as much noise from the Bolt and Kona/Niro world on battery loss either. Its too early to tell completely, but it does feel like they may have the best batteries (admittedly with lower DC charge rates) out there from a consistency standpoint.
I haven't had time to read the replies or chime in but keep in mind Bolt has no battery capacity indicator at all. It sounds like the dealer can retrieve something (in the event of reports of major capacity loss) but I'm not clear if they're allowed to tell the customer. I doubt it'd be free to request them retrieve the value/run a report since that takes dealer and tech time.

There was some capacity PID (referenced at https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/2020- ... ost-549203) that you can see on Bolts using Torque Pro but it sounds like it got blocked on 2019+ Bolts (doesn't have a valid value). I'm not clear how accurate it was anyway as I never followed.

Bolt's GOM is kinda like Leafs: never reading the same value on a full charge, depending on some unknown amount of recent driving history and varying if heater/AC are on/off. And, it can mysteriously drop if auto-defog kicks in. I've disabled auto-defog at least once (via menus), only to have it mysteriously turn itself back on at some unknown times. In short, it's completely useless for determining battery capacity.

Kona and Niro Electric in the US are CARB compliance cars with (IIRC) tiny sales. And, they haven't been out long either:
https://insideevs.com/news/342849/the-f ... red-in-us/
https://ride.tech/electric-and-hybrid/u ... e-niro-ev/ - if this is right.

And, for awhlie, Kona Electric had some crazy markups by dealers.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:08 pm

I didnt know that GM blocked it on the newer Bolts. Interesting decision. Ignorance is bliss?

Can't you determine usable capacity by driving it down to 0 and see power used? (Though that is a pain in the ass)
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

cwerdna
Posts: 11319
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:25 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:08 pm
Can't you determine usable capacity by driving it down to 0 and see power used? (Though that is a pain in the ass)
Yep. The large LCD will tell you how many kWh since last "full" charge, which has some quirks.

Example:
Let's say I'm at 70% SoC and I turn down target charge level to 60% (there are no numerical markings but from the projected GOM update on the big LCD and spacing of blocks, we can infer 5% increments), now I have a "full" charge and IIRC, the distance and kWh get reset to 0, since I'm now "full". I forget if you have to plug in (which won't charge at that point) to trigger a reset.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:04 am

cwerdna wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:25 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:08 pm
Can't you determine usable capacity
Yep. The large LCD will tell you how many kWh since last "full" charge, which has some quirks.
This sounds like the LEAF instrumentation. An owner can calculate 100 * (delta_kWh/delta_SoC)
Neither 'full charge' or 'empty' is needed.

Not that the vast majority would, only that it is possible.
So much for knowing how the Bolt fleet battery is fairing.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
lpickup
Posts: 1180
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:14 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 16138
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact: Website

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:06 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:38 pm
Do either of you use Teslfi? If so, what does the app show you in terms of where your cars are in the spectrum for your age/mileage?
Here is my TeslaFi "fleet" report:
Image

As you can see the "fleet" is pretty small. Only 70 vehicles in it for my Model 3 variant and mileage. Plus it's technically in "beta".

The starting mileage for the fleet is 312.59, while the ending mileage is 306.88. That's a 1.8% capacity loss.

Maybe the SR+ is noisier because it's a newer vehicle and in that early dropoff zone. Or, the user that posted that anecdote himself has a high mileage that reduces the size of their "fleet". The fleet is determined from vehicles that are at that particular mileage when the charge estimate was calculated. As you move your mouse across the graph, it shows how many vehicles are in your "fleet" at that odo reading. Mine peaks at about 116 vehicles at about 10K miles and tails off to 70 at my current odo. I suppose that's a reasonable way to do it, but with low numbers of cars participating, the statistics could get a bit "iffy".
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
NOGA$4ME Blog

SageBrush
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:43 am

lpickup wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:06 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:38 pm
Do either of you use Teslfi? If so, what does the app show you in terms of where your cars are in the spectrum for your age/mileage?
Here is my TeslaFi "fleet" report:
The average matches other datasets although I don't see the typical early drop followed by a much shallower degradation rate. As you say though, perhaps more cars will be the difference.

1.8% loss by 24k miles is very reassuring that the 2170 battery chemistry is living up to its high expectations. Musk has said that the pack is good for 500,000 miles. If that statement is based on 30% degradation until EOL it works out to 1% loss every 17k miles, a target within easy reach if degradation slows down after the first year as anticipated.

I'm not going to use this battery for V2G or even V2H, but I am confident that my pack will easily outlive the car.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
lpickup
Posts: 1180
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:14 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 16138
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact: Website

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:16 am

True, the early drop-off is certainly not evident here, but part of the problem may be with how TeslaFi collects that data, including the fact that people that don't sign up for TeslaFi and start tracking until 6-12 months into their ownership won't really accurately be reflected in the data (only their later measurements will be counted). Add in the fact that early buyers of this variant started out with a range of 310, which was later increased to 325, and it kind of messes up the data as well.

Regardless, the degradation is nowhere near what I saw in my LEAF, where you expected 15% degradation after a few years before it started to level off a bit! We are in an entirely different realm of degradation here.
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
NOGA$4ME Blog

WetEV
Posts: 4055
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:30 am

lpickup wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:16 am
Regardless, the degradation is nowhere near what I saw in my LEAF, where you expected 15% degradation after a few years before it started to level off a bit! We are in an entirely different realm of degradation here.
Why gee, the whole battery business is getting better. Who would have expected that?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Return to “Other Electric Cars & Plug-In Hybrids”