User avatar
TomT
Posts: 10650
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:16 pm

I'm saying that if a single QC station in range is the only link between me and being stranded without enough charge, then no, I will not rely on it. I will plan alternate arrangements or take the ICE...
After more than 3 years and 48,000 miles, I am past the "adventure" stage...
drees wrote:So you're saying that you can't rely on QCs at all? I think there's basically only a few locations in all of the USA where there's more than one CHAdeMO station per location.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Tesla Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

Valdemar
Posts: 2669
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:07 pm

drees wrote: Definitely. Tesla made the right call by installing more plugs per location as it improves efficiency of the stations as a whole while minimizing risk of a user being stranded or finding all stations busy.
He-he...

Image
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

User avatar
walterbays
Posts: 1209
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:55 pm

Valdemar wrote:He-he...

Image
I'm skeptical of the long term prospects for Tesla's supercharger network. We've seen free charging be overloaded, broken, and not repaired quickly. Tesla's network isn't free; drivers prepay thousands of dollars for access. But once that money is in Tesla's bank there's no incentive from their customer base to keep ample charging freely available. There is pressure to maintain their reputation to win new customers, but that could be viewed as much a PR issue as a maintenance and construction issue.

For reliable access to charging pay per minute is best. Pay per kWh is worse. Pay per session or per hour is worse. Pay per month is even worse. Pay per lifetime is worse still. Free is worst.

User avatar
TomT
Posts: 10650
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:32 pm

I disagree. I believe that Tesla has a very strong motivation to keep them all working and to grow the network. It's Nissan that is lacking motivation it would seem...
walterbays wrote:I'm skeptical of the long term prospects for Tesla's supercharger network.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Tesla Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

User avatar
abasile
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:52 pm

Considering that Tesla's Hawthorne (Los Angeles) SuperCharger site is the busiest of all, that it's inside an urban area and thus gets used by locals, and that it wasn't built out as aggressively as some other sites, I don't find it surprising that some drivers have to wait. I don't think Tesla would have even put a SuperCharger there if it weren't for the presence of their design center and SpaceX. The typical SC site is in a less dense area, serves the purpose of connecting urban centers, and does so quite well.

As long as Tesla sales are strong, I expect they'll continue adding more sites and more charging bays; it's a marketing expense. Also, I believe with critical mass we will eventually see third parties installing SuperChargers and charging for their use. For now, I think Tesla well understands that a subsidized, "free" network of SuperChargers is the best way to get off the ground and gain consumer acceptance. Tesla's network will probably stay free for the long term, but won't necessarily be the most convenient or available option unless you're out on a lonely Interstate. I wouldn't drive out of my way and wait for an extra hour to use a free Tesla SC if there's an available, reasonably-priced, third party SC right along my route.

Back to the LEAF and Nissan, I admit that I was among those who felt that installing CHAdeMO units at Nissan dealers was a great move. I was wrong. It's better than nothing, but all we really have now is a patchwork of one-off charging sites with limited hours, uncertain reliability, non-uniform policies/networks, salespeople who look at you funny, and cars that need to be moved out of the way. In fairness, I've been very pleased with Fontana Nissan's hospitality, and reasonably pleased with Metro Nissan in Redlands. Still, they don't offer anywhere near the reliability and availability of a SuperCharger site, nor should I expect them to. Their main business is selling cars and servicing ICE vehicles; EV charging is more of a sideshow, and with demand charges, a costly one.

Clearly, Tesla's vision has proven much clearer than mine or Nissan's. At this point, I think Nissan would do best to set up dedicated, multi-stall, 24/7 QC sites at some key locations in SoCal. Or just sort of ignore the whole CHAdeMO thing and market the LEAF as simply a local-only car.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

User avatar
DaveEV
Posts: 6251
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:17 pm

Valdemar wrote:
drees wrote: Definitely. Tesla made the right call by installing more plugs per location as it improves efficiency of the stations as a whole while minimizing risk of a user being stranded or finding all stations busy.
He-he...

Image
Yeah, they obviously need more stations there. It's the busiest in the world, only has 6 stalls pushing 58 MWh/month. Just two more stalls would cut your odds of finding them all busy in half. They need about 10 stalls there to nearly eliminate having to wait or to add a couple more SuperCharger locations to the area. Hawthorne isn't the only location that needs more stations, but it's definitely the worst off right now.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... post635959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When San Juan Capistrano opens up (should be done very soon now) that should take a good amount of pressure off Hawthorne. Looks like they have another one in Los Angeles that they will be opening soon, too.
walterbays wrote:There is pressure to maintain their reputation to win new customers, but that could be viewed as much a PR issue as a maintenance and construction issue.
I too am skeptical of an "all you can eat" program like this, but Tesla has always viewed the SuperChargers as a marketing expense. Why else would they build a SuperCharger network across the country so early in the game?

Most of those stations are very, very rarely used at this point in the game. It will be years and years before most of those are utilized anywhere near the extent that the ones near populated areas are.
abasile wrote:Still, they don't offer anywhere near the reliability and availability of a SuperCharger site, nor should I expect them to. Their main business is selling cars and servicing ICE vehicles; EV charging is more of a sideshow, and with demand charges, a costly one.
If you're going to go through the trouble of installing a QC, IMO you probably should be making best efforts to keep them available. I still think most of the issue comes from people simply not understanding that while a single QC can be useful, it is very difficult to rely on when you demand 99% uptime.

A single station simply can't provide the level of reliability. And it seems that the only company installing public charging stations who understands that is Tesla.

Blink? No - half-assed dual-plug QC is lucky to have one plug that works. At least they usually have 2-3 L2 plugs, but with one typically in a handicap spot that cuts down on availability significantly.
AeroVironment? No - They only installed a single QC + L2 at every location in the north west.
eVgo? No - Like AV, they only install a single QC + L2 at every location.
Nissan? No - Single QC and perhaps a couple L2 stations. Restricted hours. Inconsistent dealer policies.
ChargePoint? Only recently came out with a dual-head charging station. Not really their fault, they rely on hosts to pay for their overpriced equipment.

Nearly everyone has backup charging at home in the form of a L1 EVSE. And I bet a lot of you upgraded that L1 EVSE so that you can charge at L2 rates when needed.

It seems like everyone is simply aiming to provide the bare minimum and not willing to step up and install some infrastructure that can be relied upon. Until that happens, EVs will never go mainstream.

When you go to a gas station, typically there's 4-10 independent pumps. if that fails, there's usually another station across the street or down the block. That's the type of redundancy and availability that charging stations ultimately need.

91040
Posts: 1045
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 06 May 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:48 am

At eleven days shy of 3 years and 60 miles short of 71k, I am not past the adventure stage.
TomT wrote:I'm saying that if a single QC station in range is the only link between me and being stranded without enough charge, then no, I will not rely on it. I will plan alternate arrangements or take the ICE...
After more than 3 years and 48,000 miles, I am past the "adventure" stage...
1st Capacity Bar loss 30k mi 16mo
2nd- 49k mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73k mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah
4th- 86.5k mi 43mo 42.6Ah
5th- 101k mi 50.5mo 38.4Ah, end 36.1Ah
New Battery 9/28/15 104k mi 66.1Ah
1st- 160.5k mi 34mo 54Ah
2nd- 184.4k mi 53mo 49Ah

Valdemar
Posts: 2669
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:38 pm

PlugShare reports eVgo in Tarzana is up. I've signed up for their monthly plan, they do send you DCQC outage notification e-mails which is nice. There is no filtering though, so I get notified about outages in Carlsbad which is not that useful. Hopefully there will be a way to better control the notifications in the future.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

User avatar
DaveEV
Posts: 6251
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:30 pm

Valdemar wrote:PlugShare reports eVgo in Tarzana is up. I've signed up for their monthly plan, they do send you DCQC outage notification e-mails which is nice. There is no filtering though, so I get notified about outages in Carlsbad which is not that useful. Hopefully there will be a way to better control the notifications in the future.
Unfortunately even though that message just went out, PlugShare comments say it went out 2 days ago.

What eVgo should really do is comment on PlugShare when it's down, comment when they have an ETA for fixing it, and comment again when they've repaired it.

While these Nissan DCQCs appear to be marginally more reliable than Blinks, they still seem to go down quite often. Just another argument for installing multiple QCs per location. The Nissan QCs sure don't seem to like the heat, they've been dropping like flies the last week.

After they reported the Carlsbad QC down, they also reported the West Covina Nissan and Los Cerritos Nissan QC stations as down, too.

BTW, anyone been to the West Covina Nissan to charge? No reports on PlugShare...

User avatar
walterbays
Posts: 1209
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counti

Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:45 pm

Valdemar wrote:PlugShare reports eVgo in Tarzana is up. I've signed up for their monthly plan, they do send you DCQC outage notification e-mails which is nice. There is no filtering though, so I get notified about outages in Carlsbad which is not that useful. Hopefully there will be a way to better control the notifications in the future.
Thanks for pointing out these notices! They were being filtered into my "advertising" folder which I rarely examine, and now I set a filter to flag them for my attention. Gmail lets you do this and I expect that many other mail services provide similar capabilities so you may want to look into that rather than wait for eVgo. Later I may refine my filter to only call my attention to outages in my area by matching the station names.

Now I'm waiting to see whether they also send station-back-up notices, which I haven't seen. I'm guessing they just haven't turned those on yet, and it's not that one by one all the eVgo stations are going down and not being repaired. That could only be the case if eVgo were acquired by Blink, right? :-)

Return to “Pacific USA”