Advise on Purchasing a Leaf in Utah

I'm new to the forum and although I've been doing a lot of reading from past posts, I was hoping perhaps some of you can clarify some things for me. I recently moved to Norther Utah and I'm interested in purchasing a Leaf to help my 30 mile round trip commute everyday. I currently have an 05 BMW X3 that I love driving. However at 19 MPG I'm having to fill up once a week approximately costing me $160 per month in fuel. For about 10 of those miles I'll be driving 75mph, the rest of the time between 25 - 45 mph. I live at the base of a mountain and getting home requires a steep drive for about 2 miles up the mountain. I do plan on keeping my BMW since it's AWD and will help in snowy weather.

With this in mind, I was wondering:

• I recently found a '15 S with 30K miles for $9000. The owner states that the vehicle has 24 kWh battery along with a normal charge port and a super charging port. From my reading I was under the impression that the S trim version only came with 3.6kWh internal charger, while the SV and SL came with 6.6kWh charger? Isn't the 3.6kWh a normal charger while the 6.6kWh the 'super charger'? What would he be referring to?
• Will I need to get a special 220V adapter installed in my home in order to charge the vehicle? I have about 3 110V outlets in my garage, but no 220V.
• I have heard that weather affects the battery. Average weather where I live ranges from 90F in the summer to 20F in the winter. I'm concerned about battery degradation and how it will eventually affect the life of the vehicle? Some have mentioned something about a 'lizard battery'. How can you tell if a vehicle has this type of battery?
• How does this vehicle fair in snowy conditions? I was counting on using my X3 on heavy snowy days, but was curious if the leaf would have to be a summer only car or if did decent in the winter also?
• I'm looking at purchasing a used Leaf from a private seller. I've read many advise to use the LeafSpy app along with BlueTooth ODBII adapter to check condition of the battery. I personally don't understand what I'm looking at when it comes to the LeafSpy app since I'm not very knowledgable with some of the terms yet and what they mean (SOH, GID, SOC, DTE, etc) are there any recommended resources out there that I can use to learn how to use the app effectively?
• I have kids that are in their early teens and eventually I'd like to hand down the vehicle to them in about 3 to 4 years so they can commute to and and from school. With eventual battery degradation could I still expect to get decent milage after 4 years? What things can a new owner do in order to prolong the life of the battery?
• Is there a specific trim or year model that is recommended over another one? Are there certain features in a particular trim that are must haves and should strongly consider before purchasing something like the base model? I vaguely recall reading about one trim having a separate cooling or heating system.
• What are the rules about charging your vehicle? Should you plug in your car every night regardless of how much charge is still left or should you wait till it gets to a particular level and then charge?

I sincerely appreciate your input. Cheers.

ubun2Junky said:

[*]I recently found a '15 S with 30K miles for $9000. The owner states that the vehicle has 24 kWh battery along with a normal charge port and a super charging port. From my reading I was under the impression that the S trim version only came with 3.6kWh internal charger, while the SV and SL came with 6.6kWh charger? Isn't the 3.6kWh a normal charger while the 6.6kWh the 'super charger'? What would he be referring to?

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No. The '15 S trim comes with 3.x kW (NOT kWh) OBC but there is a charge package that upgrades the OBC to 6.x kW and adds the CHAdeMO (quick charge) inlet. See Specs tab of http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2015-nissan-leaf-press-kit.

It is NOT Supercharger, "super charger" or anything like that. In the US, there are 3 incompatible DC Fast Charge standards: Tesla Supercharger, CHAdeMO and SAE Combo aka J1772 CCS aka Frankenplug. http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5012#p5012 shows pics of them. Combo1 is the flavor of SAE Combo in the US. CHAdeMO is optional on the Leaf.

ubun2Junky said:

[*]Will I need to get a special 220V adapter installed in my home in order to charge the vehicle? I have about 3 110V outlets in my garage, but no 220V.

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No but charging at 120 volts is slow. 120 volts * 12 amps = 1,440 watts = 1.44 kW will come out of the wall . ~1.2 kW will make it into the battery, so in 1 hour (when car isn't near full and in ramp down phase), about 1.2 kWh will make it into the battery, of which there are ~21 to 22 kWh usable when new.

For your commute, you should be ok. However, you need to have a 15 amp circuit w/no or no other big loads on it. There are other caveats like potential issues w/aluminum wire, Zinsco or Federal Pacific panels. You don't have want to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10887.

I have heard that weather affects the battery. Average weather where I live ranges from 90F in the summer to 20F in the winter. I'm concerned about battery degradation and how it will eventually affect the life of the vehicle? Some have mentioned something about a 'lizard battery'. How can you tell if a vehicle has this type of battery?
How does this vehicle fair in snowy conditions? I was counting on using my X3 on heavy snowy days, but was curious if the leaf would have to be a summer only car or if did decent in the winter also?

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With a '15 you should be ok for quite a while as long as the battery pack doesn't get hot and stay hot for days on end. I assume the 90F days have cooler nights, and aren't all that common? The 2015 does have the "Lizard" pack, and that resists heat and age degradation much better than the 2011-2012 packs, and probably a bit better than the 2013-early 2014 packs.

The main issue I see here is that the S comes with only the resistance cabin heater, while the SV and SL (from 2013 on) come with a much more efficient at moderate temps heatpump-based heating system. You should manage ok with a 30 mile round trip commute, but you will use lots of power even in mildly cold weather with the S, while an SV or SL would use a lot of power for heat only in sub-25F weather. If you like a warm car in Winter regardless of how far you need to drive, look for an SV or SL. If you often forget to use the heater, the S with its heated seats and wheel should be fine.

The Leaf handles fine in snow with snow tires. The OEM Ecopias that it comes with aren't quite up to really wintry roads.

Others will fill you in on using LeafSpy. The short answer is that the State Of health (SOH) is the most important number, and should be no less than 95% for a 2015 with a good pack. These readings can be temporarily falsified if the battery management system has been reset, but this is still uncommon, at least with locally resold cars.

If you are near Weber or Davis county I could help you with Leafspy and advise you on home charging. Also my Leaf did great in the snow with the stock tires last winter. I'm sure snow tires would make it amazing.

Thank you for all the great replies!

With a '15 you should be ok for quite a while as long as the battery pack doesn't get hot and stay hot for days on end. I assume the 90F days have cooler nights, and aren't all that common? The 2015 does have the "Lizard" pack, and that resists heat and age degradation much better than the 2011-2012 packs, and probably a bit better than the 2013-early 2014 packs.

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The temperature seems to vary. It has gotten as high as 100F but not often. Nothing like Arizona or Nevada weather though. You mentioned that the '13 started coming out with the lizard battery. Is there a way to check? If I gave my local dealer the VIN of the vehicle would they be able to tell me?

The main issue I see here is that the S comes with only the resistance cabin heater, while the SV and SL (from 2013 on) come with a much more efficient at moderate temps heatpump-based heating system. You should manage ok with a 30 mile round trip commute, but you will use lots of power even in mildly cold weather with the S, while an SV or SL would use a lot of power for heat only in sub-25F weather. If you like a warm car in Winter regardless of how far you need to drive, look for an SV or SL. If you often forget to use the heater, the S with its heated seats and wheel should be fine.

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The resistance heater is a concern if it will start draining on the battery. I can do without AC, but in the winter I need my heater. The heated seats in my BMW don't kick in till I'm about 3/4 of the way to my destination, so I'm not sure if that would be enough to keep me warm enough and my wife would hate the fact that we couldn't use the heater due to battery power.

I looked at the 2015 because It's still a very new car and thought that perhaps a newer model might include better options. I have come across a '13 SL Premium for $11,000 with 18K miles. Would I be better off going that route, although three years older rather than one year, but a better trim model?

If you are near Weber or Davis county I could help you with Leafspy and advise you on home charging. Also my Leaf did great in the snow with the stock tires last winter. I'm sure snow tires would make it amazing.

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I work at WSU so yeah, I'll take you up on your offer and meet you somewhere and talk about your car! I don't have the car yet, I'm trying to do as much work now and get myself educated so I don't have buyers remorse later on and have no regrets. I'll PM you and send you my info. Thx.

Here's a little breakdown on trim levels and options for you, at least this for 2013, not sure if same on 2015.

Quick Charge
•S: Optional (ask for photo of charge port)
•SV: Optional (ask for photo, or check for LED headlights)
•SL: Standard

3.3kW / 6.6kW
S: with Quick Charge
SV/SL: Standard

Heater
S: Resistive
SV/SL: Heat Pump

Another guy here in Utah. I live in Bountiful and work in Salt Lake. I have a 2012 SL and 2015 S. PM me if you are interested in seeing my cars, talk about what I have learned and regretted.

ubun2Junky said:

You mentioned that the '13 started coming out with the lizard battery. Is there a way to check? If I gave my local dealer the VIN of the vehicle would they be able to tell me?

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No. The official start of "lizard" batteries was with model year 2015. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168. There are claims here that some late 2014 model year Leafs (was a very short model year) also got it. Who knows if that's right?

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that 2013 Leafs with build months on/after 4/2013, found on the driver's side door sticker hold up better in terms of degradation than all '11 and '12 Leaf batteries. We don't know when the cutoff/cut over is as Nissan has never acknowledged any of this.

I live in SLC and recently purchased a used Leaf. '14 SV.

FWIW I think the heater is a big deal because it's cold here especially in the mornings heading to work.

Based on my research and limited experience, I don't think age or miles of the car is as big of a determinant than battery health (not the same evaluation factors as ICE used cars, even though they are still priced that way). I opted to look for late '13 or newer SV for the better heater and not to deal with bad battery. I didn't want to pay up for the SL.

The OBD2 and Leaf Spy is pretty cool, super easy to use, and probably the best way to get an idea of what you are getting. It's still a guess and roll of the dice though - like any used car. The 14's still have some b to b warranty left which is nice. I have the OBD2 for iOS if you want to borrow it.

Also on degradation. The recommended maintenance schedule on these cars all the way over 100k and beyond is silly stupid. It is literally a repeat of change brake fluid, rotate tires and change the cabin air filter - period! So I figure the big risk with battery degradation in 5-7 years is you plunk down $4-5k for a new battery and keep on going, which is a pretty good deal for a teen commuter.

I looked at the blue '14 SV with 21K miles listed at $9,988 at autobahn motors and it seemed to show very good battery numbers. We went with one with black interior because we were uncomfortable with how much the light interior would show dirt - we don't have a very clean scene with pets and kids!

Best of luck and have fun.

You mentioned that the '13 started coming out with the lizard battery. Is there a way to check? If I gave my local dealer the VIN of the vehicle would they be able to tell me?

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Cwerdna covered it. You can't tell the build date from the VIN AFAIK, you have to look at the doorjamb sticker. The earliest Leaf you'd want would be a 2013 built 4/2013, and it should have at least 90% SOH. If you find a nice one with less than 90%, consider it an 11 bar car with a 60 mile range even if it shows 12, and negotiate accordingly.

Don't trust SOH unless AHR is also high. Also, don't trust either number if it's been sitting on a dealer lot for months. I learned this when my 91% SOH / 59.63 AHR car I bought started dropping then leveled off at 87% SOH 56.96 AHR after a few weeks of driving

Someone helped me with these numbers to use when I was in the car lot with my OBDII reader:

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr

Been seeing posts that battery life goes down in the winter. Although the battery charge maybe at 100%, the milage you get out of the vehicle is significantly less than what you would expect in summer or spring months. How have others experience been with this?

ubun2Junky said:

Been seeing posts that battery life goes down in the winter. Although the battery charge maybe at 100%, the milage you get out of the vehicle is significantly less than what you would expect in summer or spring months. How have others experience been with this?

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I have never heard of anyone's LEAF *not* behaving this way; not if they actually HAVE significant seasonal temperature variations, anyway. Unfortunately, the effects stack up in the same direction: the battery capacity is temporarily reduced, more energy gets spent on climate control/defrost, tire rolling resistances increase, air becomes more dense, and there's extra water or snow to push around more often.

I have never heard of anyone's LEAF *not* behaving this way; not if they actually HAVE significant seasonal temperature variations, anyway. Unfortunately, the effects stack up in the same direction: the battery capacity is temporarily reduced, more energy gets spent on climate control/defrost, tire rolling resistances increase, air becomes more dense, and there's extra water or snow to push around more often.

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Would you say on average to expect 50% decrease in distance due to these factors? I say average because I know winter weather will vary from day to day. The vehicle travels on average about 80 miles on a good summer day, I would like to know if on a bad day, you're looking at getting 40 miles distance instead.

No, if you get 80 miles range in the summer, in the winter with heated seats, steering wheel and (my non-heat pump) "S" heater, you could expect 65-70 miles range instead...

Just wanted to take a minute and thank everyone that provided me with great advise on purchasing a Leaf. I just picked up my new 2013 Leaf SL today and I'm really excited to start driving it. It took an entire charge to try to get it home, now I've got to wait 18 hrs before it gets back up to full charge so I can start driving it again.

Again thanks for the phone calls and great advise. Merry Christmas to all of you guys.

Order an L2 charging station ASAP, tax credit ends 12/31.

Dang... I was hoping to pick one up this summer. They're fairly expensive. Is there a specific one you would recommend. Perhaps I can pick one up from Amazon?

Clipper Creek has the best combination of low price and high quality.

So many options for an L2 charger! To be honest I wanted to wait till this summer to purchase L2 charger, but here are some questions. The vehicle I purchased was a 2013 Leaf SL-E. It has full battery capacity.

1. Will using the L1 charger that came with the vehicle hurt the vehicle if I wait for a few months to get a new L2 charger?
2. How much of a tax credit do I get for a charger? Just got solar panels in my home so the majority of tax credit is already gone to that.
3. With so many options for L2 chargers, what would be the recommended no frillz standard charger be for my vehicle? I don't have a 240V in my garage and electrician has already quoted me $500 to run the electrical line for me so I'm looking for practical and economical! Owning an electric car is adding up quickly!

Thx