InsideEVs Apr 2023: "We are not too optimistic about the Leaf."

https://insideevs.com/news/664799/2023-nissan-leaf-price-epa-range/

The article tl;dr is that without the Fed EV credit, the 60 kWh LEAF at 212 miles EPA range MSRP is the same cost as the 272 EPA mile range Tesla Model 3.

The LEAF could barely (to the tune of about 800 cars a month in the USA during Q1 2023) compete with the Tesla Model 3 when Nissan had the EV tax credit. Unless Nissan and it's dealerships drop the price some $4,000, I'm hard pressed to imagine triple digit monthly sales.

My feeling is that when older Americans finally feel that it's time to get an EV, that they will, if given the chance, choose the Leaf over the Model 3 three to one. The irony is that by then, the Leaf will likely be gone.

It is going to take some very talented marketing folks to turn that thought into a successful advert

"Spend your final years in comfort" :lol:

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Joking aside, my wife is not a fan of Tesla Model 3 ownership because she views the car as expensive show toy rather than unsentimental appliance, but she raves about its comfort.

Lefty got me to thinking about how to market to the very old. How about

The camera zooms in to the smiling face of a Senior being wheel chaired towards a LEAF

The voice-over: "Going to sign ADVANCE DIRECTIVES does not have to be painful. Get your BRAND NEW LEAF today, time is running out."

LeftieBiker said:

My feeling is that when older Americans finally feel that it's time to get an EV, that they will, if given the chance, choose the Leaf over the Model 3 three to one. The irony is that by then, the Leaf will likely be gone.

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Yes, I agree.

I'm hoping for a major refresh rather than an end. Cost reduce and/or upgrades.

My 90+ year old dad in Colorado drives a 40kWh LEAF. Battery is very likely to outlive him. Never once quick charged, so not any rapidgate worries. Unlike the Model 3, easy to get in and out. Buttons rather than touch screen. Loves it.

WetEV said:

My 90+ year old dad in Colorado drives a 40kWh LEAF.

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That is awesome.

No doubt that older people (and lots of younger people) like higher cars. That is one of the things that has made our Chevy Bolt a wife favorite. The Tesla Model Y split the difference by raising the seats but mostly leaving the car at the same height as the Model 3. It seems like a dumb marketing ploy but it sure does sell.

The leaf has front doors that open wide and comfortable seats at a easy height. That makes it ideal for older people to get in or out and a pleasant ride. We shopped around and rejected the Bolt, Kona and others as uncomfortable and awkward. We love our Leaf.

Leaf will be phased out in favor of the Ariya. Ariya will be built in the US and qualify for the EV incentives. If the leaf survives at all it will be as a Japanese only brand. The leaf is too expensive without the EV incentives and lacks the range to compete with newer EV's

johnlocke said:

Leaf will be phased out in favor of the Ariya. Ariya will be built in the US and qualify for the EV incentives.

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Why would a US built Ariya qualify but a US built LEAF not ?

SageBrush said:

johnlocke said:

Leaf will be phased out in favor of the Ariya. Ariya will be built in the US and qualify for the EV incentives.

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Why would a US built Ariya qualify but a US built LEAF not ?

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Battery materials.

WetEV said:

SageBrush said:

johnlocke said:

Leaf will be phased out in favor of the Ariya. Ariya will be built in the US and qualify for the EV incentives.

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Why would a US built Ariya qualify but a US built LEAF not ?

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Battery materials.

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How do they differ ?
So far as I know, AESC is the source for both LEAF and Ariya

Let me add my 2 cents opinion as a 76 year old fart who has owned 5 Leafs (2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 &. 2023).and now an owner of 2 Tesla Model Ys. My favorite Leaf was our White/White 2019 SL Plus that got totaled.

The egress/ Ingress of the leaf was excellent. The simplicity made the Leaf felt like putting on a pair of old comfortable shoes. The Model Y egress/Ingress is just as easy for my older overweight 6 foot tall body. When demo driving the Model 3 I couldn’t get in/out of it without generating much neck pain because of the roof height at the door so we bought a Model Y instead. The M3 reminded me of my Corvette in my younger days.

When the Leaf was no longer eligible for the tax credit and the long range Model Y price effectively dropped to $42,500 after tax credit, then it was a no brainer for us.

The Tesla Y has gobs of extra cargo space. The seats are SOOO comfortable compared to the Leaf. The included basic autopilot makes driving long distance stress free. The published 313 miles of range is still a good really 250 at highway speeds. The Nav Satellite view is first class. The supercharging charging infrastructure is reliable and die right awesome, making it a true cross country car. The acceleration will blow your mind even set to chill mode. The ability to use your smartphone or Apple Watch as a key is great no longer needing a fob. The handling is a wonderful experience.

The Tesla has some quirks like phantom breaking, windshield wipers coming on for no reason, recent elimination of Ultrasonic sensors in bumper and replacing it with Tesla vision cameras and the fancy door handles aren’t as easy as the Leaf’s. Trying to find the flush door handles at night is a challenge on the Tesla. Also it seems that Tesla owners are more snobby.

As a local grocery getter the Leaf is slightly better choice. My sister bought a Leaf S in December. After federal and CA state tax credit it was a sub $20k purchase. Perfect for local driving but not for trips greater than a radius of 50 miles from home. She regrets not having purchased a SV Plus for the extra range.

SageBrush said:

WetEV said:

SageBrush said:

Why would a US built Ariya qualify but a US built LEAF not ?

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Battery materials.

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How do they differ ?
So far as I know, AESC is the source for both LEAF and Ariya

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Leaf battery materials were sourced from Japan with final assembly in the US. More to the point is that the assembly plant in Tennessee is being retooled for Ariya production. It might be possible to source enough material in the US to qualify but the Ariya uses a different style of battery pack and Nissan doesn't have the facilities here to produce both. Under the new rules the Leaf gets no tax credit at all and neither does an Ariya since it is still built in Japan. When the production line in Tennessee opens up, the Ariya will qualify for $3750 Federal tax rebate unless they can find a US source For the battery.

Why does the LEAF not qualify ?

I presume Japan is an FTA country, so even if the metals are sourced/refined from e.g China, the assembly into cells is a considerable amount of the supply chain value.

And if not, then why would the Ariya not have the same fate ?

SageBrush said:

Why does the LEAF not qualify ?

I presume Japan is an FTA country, so even if the metals are sourced/refined from e.g China, the assembly into cells is a considerable amount of the supply chain value.

And if not, then why would the Ariya not have the same fate ?

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The word from Nissan HQ is that it is temporary and now that Japan has been added to the FTA critical minerals, it might return by the end of this year or next. Rumors from VP's at the company of course, so don't bet money on it, but Nissan is a company in the business to make money and already have a lot of R&D invested into their line of EVs.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2023-03/US%20Japan%20Critical%20Minerals%20Agreement%202023%2003%2028.pdf

FlyCT

I agree with the MY reduction in price and loss of tax credit on the Leaf, only a few discounted lease scenarios make sense for the Leaf now. That said I have had couple friends buy a Leaf S recently, so a few Leafs are still getting into the wild. If you are dead set not to get Tesla, and shopping in the budget space, the Leaf might be the only sub 30K EV you can get.

DougWantsALeaf said:

FlyCT

I agree with the MY reduction in price and loss of tax credit on the Leaf, only a few discounted lease scenarios make sense for the Leaf now. That said I have had couple friends buy a Leaf S recently, so a few Leafs are still getting into the wild. If you are dead set not to get Tesla, and shopping in the budget space, the Leaf might be the only sub 30K EV you can get.

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I gather the Bolt has a full tax credit. No idea why that is true, other than GM has a lot of political muscle.
Dealers are piling on garbage fees but the final cost is still way below $30k
Car preferences aside, I think the biggest question for the Bolt is whether it is reasonable to buy an EOL car.

Of course that can happen any day to the LEAF too, and CHAdeMO is almost formally dead

The Bolt I think is a fine budget EV, they are just in short supply, so not always east to get or if you can, at sticker.

I am hoping Leaf sales extend into 24 as the longer the Leaf is officially sold, the longer evgo, shell, and others will continue to maintain those installations..which are still going in thankfully. Once the Leaf stops, I do think we will within 24 months start to see a decline of total locations. We are thankfully still going up, but it is slowing.

I need to get my S+ to/from Kansas for 3 more years. That's my ask for continued chademo support.

Wasn't this the same source that was all in on the Bolt's future? :lol:

johnlocke said:

Ariya will be built in the US and qualify for the EV incentives.

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The Ariya that's sitting in my Nissan dealer's showroom has a Japanese VIN...