Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

[saintyohann]

Before there's any more conflict here, EV has every right to his opinion that Nissan is a good company. He has probably received nothing but great service.

But I'm also justified in my opinion that Nissan is a bad company. Trust me that they have earned that opinion.

 

[mwalsh]

I think saintyohann's car TRULY deserves the "Lemon" label I despise so much. No doubt about it...that car has some SERIOUS problems. And if Nissan can't figure out what's wrong at the dealer level, they need to take it back at the corporate level and strip it down to see what's wrong with it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Lemons are not cars that have "not performed to customer expectation" THAT is a result of the buyer not doing their due diligence in finding the right car for them. people who complain about a 20% loss should realize that. sure its unexpected to have it happen in 18 months instead of 5 years but it WILL happen so what were you expecting that is not a Lemon, but this is far far different.

 

[wiltingleaf]

Lemons are not cars that have "not performed to customer expectation" THAT is a result of the buyer not doing their due diligence in finding the right car for them. people who complain about a 20% loss should realize that. sure its unexpected to have it happen in 18 months instead of 5 years but it WILL happen so what were you expecting that is not a Lemon, but this is far far different.

You're right, I just bought the car because it was cool and I had no clue how it works or how the car was supposed to perform. Seriously, I had so many spreadsheets and calculations predicting my return on investment. I determined that at 5 yrs at 20% I would save X amount of money or Y amount of money after 10 yrs at 30% loss, from not buying gas and producing my own free energy from solar panels. I figured by that time, the battery technology would be much better and the cost of upgrade would be about what I had saved. Not that it matters, but I have an advanced degree in engineering and don't buy cars on a whim!!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Lemons are not cars that have "not performed to customer expectation" THAT is a result of the buyer not doing their due diligence in finding the right car for them. people who complain about a 20% loss should realize that. sure its unexpected to have it happen in 18 months instead of 5 years but it WILL happen so what were you expecting that is not a Lemon, but this is far far different.

You're right, I just bought the car because it was cool and I had no clue how it works or how the car was supposed to perform. Seriously, I had so many spreadsheets and calculations predicting my return on investment. I determined that at 5 yrs at 20% I would save X amount of money or Y amount of money after 10 yrs at 30% loss, from not buying gas and producing my own free energy from solar panels. I figured by that time, the battery technology would be much better and the cost of upgrade would be about what I had saved. Not that it matters, but I have an advanced degree in engineering and don't buy cars on a whim!!

i have to admit, i preach green but my primary reason for getting the LEAF was the unique coolness of driving pure electric AND that it was cheap. sure, full range is what benefits me the most and i figured on public charging filling the gaps as my range dissipated and its good my degradation is less than i figured it to be at this time because the public charging system roll out has been WAAAAY under what i had expected by now.

i am set going South but that is it. (which is good because that is a work commute) so i can do that on a whim. going any other direction right now requires a little planning (and a LOT of finger crossing due to having to use primarily Blink) until i get way north of Seattle then its smooth sailing again as i hit AV chargers which are up much more

but even without the fast chargers, i am already ready to relegate the LEAF to a role within the 30% degradation today. dont want to, but am ready for it. come winter, its a 20% reduction anyway so not a lot of adjustment here.

either way, we see how it goes. at 22,000 miles it is still way too early for me to make any real judgments on long term viability of the LEAF i have other than to say; so far, so very very good

 

[Nubo]

Lemons are not cars that have "not performed to customer expectation" THAT is a result of the buyer not doing their due diligence in finding the right car for them. people who complain about a 20% loss should realize that. sure its unexpected to have it happen in 18 months instead of 5 years but it WILL happen so what were you expecting...

Not sure I understand that. I think people were expecting it NOT to happen. Sure Nissan tried to cover themselves with vague disclosures but the various impacts on battery life were not in any way quantified.

It still comes back to a warranty. Without one, neither side has any firm ground for any expectations. I get the feeling that Nissan thinks it's too hard to craft a warranty, or that if they were to truly lay out the parameters, the car would not sell. The irony is that I don't think it will sell much until people really can have some faith in what they're buying. Conversely, Nissan would have a lot fewer problems with unrealistic expectations if there was a warranty to set them.

 

[dandrewk]

It's a fact that the battery issues are affecting a tiny percentage of Leafs. I bet an even smaller percentage applies to perspective buyers that know or care about the battery issues.

If you think the battery issues impact future Leaf sales, think again. Perhaps in Arizona, but outside of that the negative impact will be negligible.

I know that will be hard to believe, especially in this forum. But in the Leaf universe, here and abroad, the battery issue is barely a blip in the screen.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Lemons are not cars that have "not performed to customer expectation" THAT is a result of the buyer not doing their due diligence in finding the right car for them. people who complain about a 20% loss should realize that. sure its unexpected to have it happen in 18 months instead of 5 years but it WILL happen so what were you expecting...

Not sure I understand that. I think people were expecting it NOT to happen. Sure Nissan tried to cover themselves with vague disclosures but the various impacts on battery life were not in any way quantified.

It still comes back to a warranty. Without one, neither side has any firm ground for any expectations. I get the feeling that Nissan thinks it's too hard to craft a warranty, or that if they were to truly lay out the parameters, the car would not sell. The irony is that I don't think it will sell much until people really can have some faith in what they're buying. Conversely, Nissan would have a lot fewer problems with unrealistic expectations if there was a warranty to set them.

i think some "hoped" they would be ok but how can you say Nissan did not warn us when they did say 20% or more in 5 years. granted getting 15% in less than a year is shocking but to now claim the car cannot do what you purchased it for is simply not doing due diligence when determining one's transportation need.

i still think Nissan knew what would happen in AZ and was hoping for what? a different reaction? lesser weather? or a more ignorant owner? i dont know.

but what is becoming clear to me is that the affected owners' reaction is driving their actions. allowing lemon law buybacks is one option but fails in my mind because ultimate driver loyalty is the goal here. Why not replace the pack unless they simply dont have the pack yet that will hold up or the car's existing support system wont take the new pack causing too much money.

but even if it cost $10,000 per vehicle that is only 4 million if all AZ LEAFs are affected which they are not so suspecting Nissan's decision was driven by the upgrade taking too much time. (doubtful any affected owner would be willing to give up their car for a few weeks to get a retrofit) and that it was better to take the cars back then to provide a real answer.

another thing that has become clear to me is that after 10,000 posts; no one knows what "acceptable" is and that makes Nissan's job extremely difficult.

 

[Ingineer]

Nissan did on several occasions come out and say "we've tested the Leaf in hash conditions". We all know they did, they've released videos of some of it. Driving in water, getting stuck by simulated lightning, etc. You have to assume they hot climate testing is an "of course they did". After all they have a proving grounds right there in Arizona! So we definitely have expectation that if they had tested them there, and are selling them there, they should work fine there.

The battery problem may be they performed accelerated life testing which sometimes doesn't work the same as real-world calendar tests. It's looking to me like the Battery ECU (LBC) is also "jumping the gun" to some degree and reporting more loss in most of the cars than has really occurred. Software bug? Simple error based on not being able to do actual real-world real-time tests? Possibly.

I still think they'll step up and fix this somehow, but engineering teams (and brass) in large multi-national auto corporations move slowly. Consumers with a broken car rightly expect it fixed right away, but it may take them more time to accurately deduce what happened, develop a solution, test it (and you can bet it will be through!), and then finally get it in our hands.

In my opinion, they should have stepped up and immediately opened a personal dialog with their customers whenever a Leaf reports trouble. Until the Leaf and it's associated tech are well-proven, this is a good tactic, and it sure seemed like they were doing this with us at first anyway. There are many reports of them "flying engineers in" from Japan to look at problematic cars. Maybe this already happened and they are presently hard at work on a solution (one could hope). But the lack of expedient and direct communication with their customers is hard to overlook, whatever the outcome finally is.

When it's a single car with a weird problem, they should definitely step up! Sainty should never have had to experience what he did. They should have instantly given him a Loaner car (Either a Leaf or at least something nicer, like an Infiniti), and then looked for the problem. Seems obvious to me this isn't just an "absent-minded customer" situation. However, most of this, to me, sounds like the Dealer's screw-up, not Nissan's. (directly anyway) We all know how poor the Nissan dealer network is (on average) in dealing with the Leaf. I think many dealers see the Leaf is an end to their "way of life" and a threat to continued business, and don't really want it to succeed anyway. Unfortunately for Nissan the whole dealer thing is a major problem in this country. Tesla knows this which is why they are doing it differently.

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

I just love the way some people who don't have a problem with their Leaf like to rag on others who do have a problem, and have to deal with an unresponsive company.

It is classy, eh? I got mine, and it works good, so you shut up with your problem.

And they just keep coming.

:roll:

 

[EVDrive]

This is well written and logical Phil. The way that Nissan has responded thus far has not been good, I think we can all agree there. I think they realize that now that this issue has hurt their sales.

Those of us in software development know how difficult it can be to identify the problem, test and role out a solution. Easy to think it is easy but that does not make it true.

Many here are comparing the volt response from GM where they responed quickly compared to Nissans slow response. Yes, that was a quick and a good response form GM. The volt issue however was that they would catch on fire which is a huge safety issue and people were worried about dying in their volt by a battery meltdown. The Leaf issue is not a catch on fire issue, it is a range issue. These are very different. Customer satisfaction is very important and I think that at the end of the day Nissan is taking the right approach now and working to satisfy their unhappy customers.

Nissan did on several occasions come out and say "we've tested the Leaf in hash conditions". We all know they did, they've released videos of some of it. Driving in water, getting stuck by simulated lightning, etc. You have to assume they hot climate testing is an "of course they did". After all they have a proving grounds right there in Arizona! So we definitely have expectation that if they had tested them there, and are selling them there, they should work fine there.

The battery problem may be they performed accelerated life testing which sometimes doesn't work the same as real-world calendar tests. It's looking to me like the Battery ECU (LBC) is also "jumping the gun" to some degree and reporting more loss in most of the cars than has really occurred. Software bug? Simple error based on not being able to do actual real-world real-time tests? Possibly.

I still think they'll step up and fix this somehow, but engineering teams (and brass) in large multi-national auto corporations move slowly. Consumers with a broken car rightly expect it fixed right away, but it may take them more time to accurately deduce what happened, develop a solution, test it (and you can bet it will be through!), and then finally get it in our hands.

In my opinion, they should have stepped up and immediately opened a personal dialog with their customers whenever a Leaf reports trouble. Until the Leaf and it's associated tech are well-proven, this is a good tactic, and it sure seemed like they were doing this with us at first anyway. There are many reports of them "flying engineers in" from Japan to look at problematic cars. Maybe this already happened and they are presently hard at work on a solution (one could hope). But the lack of expedient and direct communication with their customers is hard to overlook, whatever the outcome finally is.

When it's a single car with a weird problem, they should definitely step up! Sainty should never have had to experience what he did. They should have instantly given him a Loaner car (Either a Leaf or at least something nicer, like an Infiniti), and then looked for the problem. Seems obvious to me this isn't just an "absent-minded customer" situation. However, most of this, to me, sounds like the Dealer's screw-up, not Nissan's. (directly anyway) We all know how poor the Nissan dealer network is (on average) in dealing with the Leaf. I think many dealers see the Leaf is an end to their "way of life" and a threat to continued business, and don't really want it to succeed anyway. Unfortunately for Nissan the whole dealer thing is a major problem in this country. Tesla knows this which is why they are doing it differently.

-Phil

 

[EVDrive]

I think Nissan should buy back some of the cars with problems like this one just to analyze what the problem with it truly is.

 

[DaveEV]

This is well written and logical Phil.

+1, well said Phil.

 

[surfingslovak]

I think Nissan should buy back some of the cars with problems like this one just to analyze what the problem with it truly is.

Right, that's what I would think too. But for all we know these cars could just be Normal(TM).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Customer satisfaction is very important and I think that at the end of the day Nissan is taking the right approach now and working to satisfy their unhappy customers.

You do realize that all THREE of the returned cars required a HUGE public fight by those three affected LEAF owners (with media, etc, ridiculed and attacked by some right here on this forum), and without even an acknowledgement that there is any problem. They specifically are buying the cars OUTSIDE the Lemon Law, and its just "good will".... to shut them up.

There is NO new battery coming in 2013, and I would bet for model year 2014 also. As soon as they get that next generation battery, which we have NO IDEA how it will handle heat, probably won't be available until 2015 model year (as Nissan announced several years ago).

There are lots of upset and worried LEAF drivers in Arizona, and the only things they know for certain are: 1) the batteries will tank in the heat, 2) Nissan will call it normal, 3) the value and usefulness of their car declines, 4) to get satisfaction requires almost a multi-month full time job, and so far that has happened to exactly three.

Over 400 LEAFs in Arizona. Many THOUSAND in hot areas.

 

[saintyohann]

It's been a few days since I gave any updates. I apologize now for what will most likely be a long rambling essay, I just got my cast off 2 days ago (thought I'd be walking around Wednesday morning) only to be put into a new metal boot. I'm not used to it yet and I'm loosing a little sleep due to the discomfort and dealing with this stress. I had actually almost finished this whole thing when I accidentally closed the window and lost it all.

Please pardon my spelling, grammar and run-on sentences (this is the Internet and I know it's a hobby of many to point those things out).

===== Scene 1 =====

Act I:
Last weekend I PM'd Jeff K and he read the first post and wasn't happy with what he read, thought an engineer should look at it and offered to intervene. I didn't ask for any Intervention, but told him an engineer had looked at it, found something, but refused to work on it any longer. I told him I was sure the BBB would make them buy it back and how dealing with Nissan had made me angry and bitter.

Act II:
On Monday I got a PM from (we'll call her Abby because she is a member here, but hasn't outed herself as a Nissan employee). She asked for my info and said she'd get back to me shortly. I didn't hear from her, so on Friday I PM'd her back and she replied that the current theory was that I was shifting before the car was ready. I told her the car is in ready, because I had the reverse "chime," the car's dash lights up like a Christmas tree and I'm not able to shift for quite a while, even if the car is power cycled. Plus, while I have a other times tried to shift before it was ready, the car just beeps at you and then you can shift...not the car freaking out. I also went into the car not being able to power off, even using the emergency methods. Abby never responded, but the message was read.


Act III:
Later in the day I got a call from the dispute resolution person at Nissan that is handling my case. She called me to ask if I had any questions and if there was anyway we could resolve this amicably before it went to the BBB Lemon Law arbitration. I told her to buy back the car.

She said no because they couldn't find anything wrong with the car. I told her their own engineer confirmed the codes from April (related the high-voltage system). She said the codes don't mean there is necessarily anything wrong with my car. She told me the Engineer didn't find anything wrong with my car. I stopped her there and told her the engineer refused to look at my car (*see below). I asked her why she was making this so difficult. I said you have to know you're going to lose. I have more than enough evidence it's happening, your own employees stated they saw something wrong with the car, said it was a safety issue, then refused to actually look for an issue because of the time it would take. Why would you put me through so much, knowing you would lose and then ask if we could end it amicably.

I told her I'd see her on Thursday.


===== Oh Engineer, Wherefore Art Thou =====
In August I had a conference call with the Engineer and Craig, Nissan's corporate rep guy. My interaction with the engineer went as follows:

Engineer: I've looked at the codes from April, I'm sorry they didn't send them to us then, I would have had something for them to look at...[2 codes, one was related to the Interconnect, high-voltage system]...we should re-seat the cables to fix your issue.
Me: Well actually a long list of issues, are you ready? First is the car will go into a mode where you can't shift into D or R. It usually lasts 30 minutes. Second, I'll lose a bar as I power the car off, even if I just lost one seconds before powering off, and sometimes I'll lose multiple bars while parked...[engineer cuts me off]
Engineer: Let's focus on just the first one. How often does that happen?
Me: About every 2-3 weeks.
Engineer: Well we're not going to be able to rep that.
Craig: OK, well thanks for letting us look at your car, we know your car is important to you so we'd like to get it back to you as soon as possible.
Me: That won't work. I've got photos and video of what it's doing, I can prove it. I can send it to you so you can see it and know what's happening. Do you want it?
Engineer: No, I don't need it.
Craig: Let me see if there's anything I can find for you...I'll call you back this time tomorrow.

[Craig never called, I called him and he refuses to answer or call me back, I called the dealership while he was there and he wouldn't take the phone]

 

[mksE55]

Please keep us posted.

 

[sub3marathonman]

She said no because they couldn't find anything wrong with the car. I told her their own engineer confirmed the codes from April (related the high-voltage system). She said the codes don't mean there is necessarily anything wrong with my car. She told me the Engineer didn't find anything wrong with my car. I stopped her there and told her the engineer refused to look at my car (*see below). I asked her why she was making this so difficult.

===== Oh Engineer, Wherefore Art Thou =====
In August I had a conference call with the Engineer and Craig, Nissan's corporate rep guy. My interaction with the engineer went as follows:

Engineer: I've looked at the codes from April, I'm sorry they didn't send them to us then, I would have had something for them to look at...[2 codes, one was related to the Interconnect, high-voltage system]...we should re-seat the cables to fix your issue.
Me: Well actually a long list of issues, are you ready? First is the car will go into a mode where you can't shift into D or R. It usually lasts 30 minutes. Second, I'll lose a bar as I power the car off, even if I just lost one seconds before powering off, and sometimes I'll lose multiple bars while parked...[engineer cuts me off]
Engineer: Let's focus on just the first one. How often does that happen?
Me: About every 2-3 weeks.
Engineer: Well we're not going to be able to rep that.
Craig: OK, well thanks for letting us look at your car, we know your car is important to you so we'd like to get it back to you as soon as possible.
Me: That won't work. I've got photos and video of what it's doing, I can prove it. I can send it to you so you can see it and know what's happening. Do you want it?
Engineer: No, I don't need it.
Craig: Let me see if there's anything I can find for you...I'll call you back this time tomorrow.

[Craig never called, I called him and he refuses to answer or call me back, I called the dealership while he was there and he wouldn't take the phone]

I know that the BBB meeting isn't a courtroom, but I'll bet it will be very difficult/impossible to get the Engineer or Craig to testify, and I'll bet the guy coming in from Tennessee has never heard of either of them. I'm just thinking that you need to be prepared for this scenario.

I was also wondering which BBB location people are complaining to, the corporate location of Nissan in Tennessee, or the local BBB where they are at. Because if all these complaints are scattered throughout the country, it will be almost impossible to compile the true amount of BBB complaints Nissan has.

You could also throw in about their junky onboard charger, that they have stated, in writing, should "avoid charging during times when brownouts or momentary power dips may be likely, such as during electrical storms or high power usage on the grid.". So far, Nissan has not advised me when any of those "momentary power dips" will be occurring, so I've got a $1000 240v charger I can't use. Nissan has stated that it is a software problem, and apparently they have other software problems as well. I think it shows the situation that Nissan put these vehicles out there for customers to do their alpha testing, since it isn't even ready for beta testing.

 

[Stoaty]

She said no because they couldn't find anything wrong with the car.

Here is the key issue: they can't find anything wrong with the car. Note that you have plenty of evidence that there is something wrong with the car, but they don't want to see your evidence. They can't find the problem because because it is intermittent. A reasonable person would say, "Your car was working fine, you are experienced with the Leaf. Something happened when the firmware update was done, and now there is an intermittent problem which is very hard to track down (and not worth the time/effort for Nissan)." You have certainly convinced me there is a problem with your car, I hope the BBB person is reasonable.

 

[saintyohann]

So the hearing is tomorrow morning, it starts in a little under 12 hours. I've got my documentation ready, and hopefully it will take much less time then the 2-3 hours they're estimating.

I'll post the results afterward.