defiancecp
Well-known member
Good luck, and best wishes for a firm, final, agreeable resolution 
Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday
- Thread starter saintyohann
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saintyohann
Well-known member
Well it's almost over, met with the arbitrator and Nissan's DTS.
The DTS didn't do much, only asked me two questions. I'm still not sure of their position. They seem to acknowledge there is a problem, but when asked why they don't fix it, he just kept saying Nissan will continue to honor the warranty, like this wasn't a warranty defect...
I was surprised he didn't lie, he admitted a lot of things I thought he wouldn't. But he was certainly deceptive. I asked him if the software could cause these issues and he said yes. Then I asked if he had ever seen anything like this, he said no. I asked if he had ever seen these symptoms, again no. I asked if he was familiar with NTB11038, no. Then I said the symptoms were very similar, and he interrupted that that was only related to Air Conditioners.
He doesn't know about it, but then proceeded to tell me what it was... that was definitely deceptive to me.
Unfortunately the arbitrator seemed to be overwhelmed with the tech stuff (and my wife told me she was afraid he was falling asleep during the testimony). He asked for an independent EV tech to look at it...problem is no one knows where they can find one. And that could delay this by a month or more.
The DTS didn't do much, only asked me two questions. I'm still not sure of their position. They seem to acknowledge there is a problem, but when asked why they don't fix it, he just kept saying Nissan will continue to honor the warranty, like this wasn't a warranty defect...
I was surprised he didn't lie, he admitted a lot of things I thought he wouldn't. But he was certainly deceptive. I asked him if the software could cause these issues and he said yes. Then I asked if he had ever seen anything like this, he said no. I asked if he had ever seen these symptoms, again no. I asked if he was familiar with NTB11038, no. Then I said the symptoms were very similar, and he interrupted that that was only related to Air Conditioners.
He doesn't know about it, but then proceeded to tell me what it was... that was definitely deceptive to me.
Unfortunately the arbitrator seemed to be overwhelmed with the tech stuff (and my wife told me she was afraid he was falling asleep during the testimony). He asked for an independent EV tech to look at it...problem is no one knows where they can find one. And that could delay this by a month or more.
palmermd
Well-known member
All I can do is just shake my head...I just can't believe they are putting you through this. There is hardly a clearer case of a defective car and yet they still deny it. What is wrong with Nissan? I could see if this were a case where thousands of other Leaf owners would follow in your footsteps, but there is not any other Leaf known to have these issues. Seems pretty simple, play nice with your customer and get them a new car. Bring this one to the Lab to try and figure out what could be going on. It is what is probably going to happen anyway, so why drag it out in arbitration and make Nissan look like a bunch of imbeciles.
saintyohann
Well-known member
Oh yeah, funny thing happened.
During the hearing I got the following email, "Nissan Values Your Opinion." It was my 1 year survey...they didn't do too well in that survey.
During the hearing I got the following email, "Nissan Values Your Opinion." It was my 1 year survey...they didn't do too well in that survey.
palmermd said:
+1 on the taking the car back and giving him a new one.
saintyohann
Well-known member
I had a question for those that know more about the charging system and batteries:
Normally the charger ramps down as it gets full. I've watched the readout on some EVSEs and it will drop from about 3.8KW to 100-200W right at the end. I always thought the was to protect the battery.
My question is, what happens if it doesn't start to taper off? What if it keeps putting in 3.8KW until the battery is full and even then keeps going? Battery damage? Worse?
- jon
Normally the charger ramps down as it gets full. I've watched the readout on some EVSEs and it will drop from about 3.8KW to 100-200W right at the end. I always thought the was to protect the battery.
My question is, what happens if it doesn't start to taper off? What if it keeps putting in 3.8KW until the battery is full and even then keeps going? Battery damage? Worse?
- jon
davewill
Well-known member
Worse. I believe the entire macro-cosmic universe can explode. That's what I heard, anyway.saintyohann said:
Ingineer
Well-known member
Battery damage. Definitely!
Will if burst into flames, highly unlikely. The battery modules are in a hermetic case for a reason.
-Phil
Will if burst into flames, highly unlikely. The battery modules are in a hermetic case for a reason.
-Phil
saintyohann
Well-known member
Ingineer said:
In the never ending saga of the issues with my leaf, I was trying to charge it to 100% for the first time in months.
I plugged in at about 11:15 PM with 9 bars of charge and 5 for battery temp, the estimate for a full charge was 2 hours. I also used Leaf Link and it estimated charging would be done a little after 1 AM. I checked on the charge at 12:30 AM and I was at 11 bars and Leaf Link estimated the charge would be done at 2:30 AM (I thought it was weird that it was going to take 2 hours for that last bar, but it was just an estimate).
I checked the car again at 1:20 AM and Leaf Link now said the car would be done charging at 3:30 AM. I powered on the car to check what it said, the car was at 12 bars of charge and 6 for battery temp. There was no estimate for time on 120V and it still said 2 hours to charge at 240V (picture here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/58853322@N05/8095140660/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
.I gave it about an hour and a half more to charge and now Leaf Link was reporting it would be done a little after 5 AM. I powered the car on and it still said 2 hours left to charge to 100%, I still had 12 bars of battery but the battery temp was high ( I think it was at 9 bars ).
I unplugged the car, and the battery was 100%.
I don't know if the issue was with the car or the AeroVironment EVSE, but now I won't even charge this car again.
That should never happen. Very clear that your car has some sort of electrical gremlins and this is one of the symptoms. Add it to your binder of evidence.saintyohann said:There was no estimate for time on 120V and it still said 2 hours to charge at 240V (picture here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/58853322@N05/8095140660/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
Ingineer
Well-known member
Wow. The only way I can imagine this scenario is if one (or more) modules are severely out of balance with the rest of the pack.
It would be nice if you had a log of the energy into the EVSE. Can you get a Kill-A-Watt (or similar) and try this again with 120v?
-Phil
It would be nice if you had a log of the energy into the EVSE. Can you get a Kill-A-Watt (or similar) and try this again with 120v?
-Phil
davewill
Well-known member
The scenario I imagine is that the dash display is completely incorrect when it reports a battery level of 12 bars. The on-board charger and battery are happily charging to a full charge while the dash reports weirdness. It fits with his other weird symptoms like 4 battery bars suddenly disappearing. I wouldn't be comfortable charging the car, either.Ingineer said:
Stoaty
Well-known member
I hope you got a picture of 9 temp bars after a full charge. Something is really wrong with that Leaf!saintyohann said:
I wouldn't worry about it - I'm certain that the LBC is functioning properly, but it's certainly failing to communicate that information back up to the dash. It's a classic intermittent gremlin caused by a very flaky connection somewhere. It's no wonder the car isn't constantly throwing some serious error codes.davewill said:
DarkStar
Well-known member
Hey Phil, can't dealerships view the cell voltages on their CONSULT system? Wouldn't this be something that could easily be troubleshot?Ingineer said:
Well, that crazy charging behavior is not intermittent, right? Show that to them and ask them to fix it.
Certainly they can connect to to a charger and observe the strange times and overheating.
I realize you are past that now, but you now seem to have the type of problem (not intermittent) that they should be able to diagnose and correct.
Certainly they can connect to to a charger and observe the strange times and overheating.
I realize you are past that now, but you now seem to have the type of problem (not intermittent) that they should be able to diagnose and correct.
palmermd
Well-known member
Wow, so at first your wife refuses to drive the car for fear of getting stranded on the side of the road and now you fear charging it after you drive for fear of burning down your house. This car is much more than a Lemon. It is a SuperLemon.
Ingineer
Well-known member
Yes.DarkStar said:
It sounds to me like his problem is more along the lines of a faulty CM or maybe an issue with EV CAN bus integrity. It should be a simple matter to troubleshoot with Consult (or LEAFSCAN™) as long as the problems can be reproduced. The most difficult problems are the intermittents (flagging) that occur very rarely.
If the OP was local, I'd volunteer to help troubleshoot.
-Phil
ksnogas2112
Well-known member
ENIAC
Well-known member
Reading through saintyohann's posts on the LEAFs symptoms, I wonder there's a (perhaps sporadic) screaming modem somewhere on the vehicles CAN bus. This is a situation where the transceivers modem transmits on the bus when it shouldn't. I worked on early computer LANs three decades ago and this would happen on occasion. If a transceiver fails (or glitches) in such a way to transmit when it shouldn't, the data link layer protocol breaks down. If the transceiver screamed continuously, the network was hard down. More often it would scream for a short period of time, work for awhile, and scream again. If you were lucky, the transceiver would eventually fail in the off state and you could locate the offending device. Over time transceivers were developed which could sense if they were themselves "screaming" and would shut themselves down.
