ECOtality News 8/12/13 - DOE Stops payments

[DaveEV]

The mindset isn't so much that charging should be free, it is that it should be less expensive than former means of transportation. If driving my Volt 40 miles costs 1 gallon of gas and driving my Volt 40 miles on electricity costs 13kWh of electricity (4 hours of charging), then charging needs to cost less than 1 gallon of gas. That comes to just under $1/hour and I'm actually cool with paying $1/hour.

As has been said by a number of people in a variety of ways, that is NOT the correct mindset. For gasoline vehicles all fuel is purchased at a filling station. For electric vehicles, it is expected that most fuel will be purchased at home. If you don't have any way to charge at home you shouldn't have an EV.

That's a bit extreme. We _want_ people to use and to be able to rely public charging. Not everyone can charge at home. They may live at an apartment or condo without charging. For PHEVs, we _want_ them to plug in if it means they'll be able to drive more EV miles.

Now if public charging costs more than gas and this turns PHEV drivers off? Oh well. You can't convince everyone that driving EV has more benefits than saving a few cents per mile. For some people that's what it's all about - never mind they spent quite a bit of money just so they could drive EV in the first place...

 

[mkjayakumar]

Why are folks ready to pay $2.50 for some funny sounding cafe-latoo-mutto in Starbucks when it only costs them $0.50 in their house ?

 

[mwalsh]

Why are folks ready to pay $2.50 for some funny sounding cafe-latoo-mutto in Starbucks when it only costs them $0.50 in their house ?

$2.50? Aren't they closer to $5?

 

[mkjayakumar]

$2.50? Aren't they closer to $5?

Perhaps. I stopped going there when I found the price is not worth the value, given that my 4G is faster than their Wifi.

OTOH, I don't care what the EV stations charge. When I need I plug it in. And those occasions have been less than 6 a year and I think I would have paid around $25 for those charges in total. Big Deal. If those same opportunity charges is going to cost me $50 next year I wouldn't sweat.

 

[DaveEV]

Why are folks ready to pay $2.50 for some funny sounding cafe-latoo-mutto in Starbucks when it only costs them $0.50 in their house ?

I happen to like their lattes. Cost about $3.50. Restrooms are usually pretty clean, cleaner than your typical fast food joint. Important when taking a break on a road trip. Just last weekend I plugged in to a Blink station, walked across the street to Starbucks. Charged the car for 25 minutes which cost $1. So I probably paid about $0.60/kWh. Only twice what it would have cost to charge at home so public charging is a better deal than Starbucks.

My bigger concern is if Blink stations go away I'll have to drive the Prius. Blink stations have enabled quite a few excursions in the LEAF. Well worth a few bucks here and there when you need them.

 

[Cheezmo]

I'm not complaining, and I'm not using public stations (other than the evGo DC fast charging network). If your argument is correct that is another reason that a public 240V charging infrastructure like Blinks should fail. If it is only there for emergencies, then putting them all over the place for the limited use they will get will never be financially viable.

And don't tell me my mindset is wrong. It make perfect sense. If they cost is similar to buying gas I will use it. Otherwise I will not. Not using it doesn't bother me. I don't need them. That is my whole argument, I have 3 EV's in the family and we don't ever have a need for public charging. I don't think we are atypical. You just said that anyone who has an EV and needs public charging shouldn't have an EV. So the people that need public charging by your definition have the wrong "mindset".

As has been said by a number of people in a variety of ways, that is NOT the correct mindset. For gasoline vehicles all fuel is purchased at a filling station. For electric vehicles, it is expected that most fuel will be purchased at home. If you don't have any way to charge at home you shouldn't have an EV. Stopping to charge an EV on the road should be thought of as more like calling an emergency road service company asking them to bring you some gas. That will always be far more expensive than buying gas at a filling station.

If the price of using public charging stations bothers you, figure your total monthly cost of electricity for the car, including what you pay at home. If that total is more than the total you would pay to travel the same number of miles in an ICE, then you can start complaining, or better yet, start thinking about why you are using public stations so much.

Ray

 

[davewill]

I'm not complaining, ...

If you say so...

And don't tell me my mindset is wrong. It make perfect sense. If they cost is similar to buying gas I will use it. Otherwise I will not. Not using it doesn't bother me. I don't need them. That is my whole argument, I have 3 EV's in the family and we don't ever have a need for public charging. I don't think we are atypical. You just said that anyone who has an EV and needs public charging shouldn't have an EV. So the people that need public charging by your definition have the wrong "mindset".

The facts are the facts. If these stations can't at least come close to paying for their installation and maintenance costs, they will go away. Period. Right now we're in a chicken and egg situation. The government, the site owners and the charging companies (some more than others) have fronted the installation money to get things off the ground. As it stands there are not enough EVs to keep them occupied...worse, we still need lots more charging stations to make a viable network. Just ask all the people on here from places that have none, who just WISH they could pay $2.50 to charge somewhere besides their garage. If we, as the early adopters, can't even manage to pay these fees, they might as well yank all the stations out of the ground, 'cause we don't deserve to have a public charging infrastructure.

Oh, and our beloved EVs will go soon after if public charging is seen to be a bust.

 

[GRA]

I'm not complaining, ...

If you say so...

And don't tell me my mindset is wrong. It make perfect sense. If they cost is similar to buying gas I will use it. Otherwise I will not. Not using it doesn't bother me. I don't need them. That is my whole argument, I have 3 EV's in the family and we don't ever have a need for public charging. I don't think we are atypical. You just said that anyone who has an EV and needs public charging shouldn't have an EV. So the people that need public charging by your definition have the wrong "mindset".

The facts are the facts. If these stations can't at least come close to paying for their installation and maintenance costs, they will go away. Period. Right now we're in a chicken and egg situation. The government, the site owners and the charging companies (some more than others) have fronted the installation money to get things off the ground. As it stands there are not enough EVs to keep them occupied...worse, we still need lots more charging stations to make a viable network. Just ask all the people on here from places that have none, who just WISH they could pay $2.50 to charge somewhere besides their garage. If we, as the early adopters, can't even manage to pay these fees, they might as well yank all the stations out of the ground, 'cause we don't deserve to have a public charging infrastructure.

Oh, and our beloved EVs will go soon after if public charging is seen to be a bust.

Alternatively, the pace of adoption will be slowed until Tesla and perhaps others come out with longer range BEVs affordable by the mass market, and then the QCs will have more value.

 

[evnow]

Why are folks ready to pay $2.50 for some funny sounding cafe-latoo-mutto in Starbucks when it only costs them $0.50 in their house ?

I think you should read up the difference between espresso and drip coffee. In case you are talking about an expensive espresso machine at home - well, the machine is expensive

I, ofcourse, stopped going to starbucks once I figured out how crappy their espresso/latte was. I go to specialty espresso shops that are everywhere here - and they all serve better latte (and many have organic whole milk too). When I had more time I used to roast fresh beans and make espresso/latte at home. You just can't beat that fresh roasted coffee - blended to your liking. Starbucks tastes like 10 day old burnt rice - compared to freshly made aromatic rice at home.

 

[walterbays]

Near the footer of their front page:

An Important Message

We wanted you to know that the needs of our drivers are paramount to us and despite the challenges we currently face, we will continue to operate the Blink Network and maintain our Blink chargers until further notice. We urge you to visit a Blink charger today and show that you support the growth of a public charging infrastructure.

I'm as dissatisfied as anyone with much of what ECOtality has done and has failed to do. But, I bought a quick charge today even though I didn't really need it, as a little symbolic gesture of support, not for Blink but for public charging infrastructure. For all their faults Blink has at least built some infrastructure which no one else in my region has done much.

My $5 won't keep ECOtality afloat but every charge event is one more in the count that will be looked at by the new owners of Blink's assets, by the Department of Energy, by the State of California, and by anyone else trying to decide whether EV owners want and will pay anything for public charging.

 

[smkettner]

Yep, we have to get over this mindset that charging should be free or nearly so! It is completely unsustainable!

No point of sale hardware, no network fees, no 7% revenue slurp, and no down time...

No revenue stream, no chance to make back cash on the charger install, no incentive to install more chargers.

Why spend an extra $1 to collect 50 cents?

 

[planet4ever]

You just said that anyone who has an EV and needs public charging shouldn't have an EV. So the people that need public charging by your definition have the wrong "mindset".

No, that's not what I said. I said, or at least meant to say, that people who depend on public charging for all of their EV fuel shouldn't have an EV. Your argument about about the cost of public charging vs. the cost of gas has merit only if all your charging is public charging. If you are doing much of your charging at home (or work, or other non-public locations) then the argument has merit only if your total electric fuel cost per month exceeds what you would have to pay for gas. If your public charging is a small fraction of your total charging, it would take a very high public charging cost to swing that balance.

Incidentally, I would continue to drive electric even if the fuel cost was higher, because I have other much more powerful motives for doing so.

Ray

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Here, a lot of apartments have no parking, just the street, and no chance of a home based EVSE.

If they also have no EVSE at work, and what few public stations there are all have to charge premium prices to exist, then there's a lot of people who will be locked out of EV'ing, in urban areas where they'd be best adapted.

Maybe, way in future if market ever develops, power companies will open multiplex QC stations, or even curbside outlets.

I wonder, is there anyone, without home EVSE now?

 

[Pipcecil]

As many have pointed there were multiple problems with how Blink tacked the situation (beyond any internal managerial/company problems).

- Offering free charging at first just got people more resentful when they finally started costing a fee. ChargePoint charged straight out of the gate and is still around without the myriad or problems.

- Their network has been very unreliable. Multitude of hardware problems/issues where units would be broken constantly. This made it worse when their status as down was not duplicated on their online maps. Its hard to rely on public charging if its down all the time. If I don't need it, then I am not charging cause I can still get home anyways.

- ICEing is a very big problem. There have been numerous times I would want to charge for extra range, needed range, or support a business where all the units were blocked by ICE cars (and many times by EMPLOYEES of the business!!!). ICE cars blocking stations = revenue loss. If they cannot keep non-paying people out of the spots, how can they make money? There is a whole social issue with this, but the bottom line can easily be a business decision. ICE cars = loss of revenue, so their business agreements should come with enforcement of those spots.

Regardless of how bad they have been, in DFW they are the most prominate charging infrastucture with 142 locations and 342 units. The next closest is eVgo with 26 locations and 52 units. ChargePoint is barely a blip up here. If Blink's network goes off-line it would hurt DFW in the EV market.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

I wonder, is there anyone, without home EVSE now?

Yes, many people.

 

[walterbays]

Maybe, way in future if market ever develops, power companies will open multiplex QC stations, or even curbside outlets.

As planned for Estonia? http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/fast-e-v-charging-ramps-up-in-the-netherlands/?_r=0 Or New York City? http://www.dvice.com/2013-2-14/nyc-mayor-wants-10000-public-ev-charging-spots-2020

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

I wonder, is there anyone, without home EVSE now?

Yes, many people.

Many? OK, but how many of those have no EVSE at work, and no free stations? How many just fuel up at paid stations? They pay way more per kWh all the time?

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Maybe, way in future if market ever develops, power companies will open multiplex QC stations, or even curbside outlets.

As planned for Estonia? http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/fast-e-v-charging-ramps-up-in-the-netherlands/?_r=0 Or New York City? http://www.dvice.com/2013-2-14/nyc-mayor-wants-10000-public-ev-charging-spots-2020

Nice. I'll be glad to see that, if something similar happens here. Thanks.

 

[DaveEV]

Maybe, way in future if market ever develops, power companies will open multiplex QC stations, or even curbside outlets.

Blink has curbside stations installed around here in San Diego and has a contract with the city to install more.

But to really appeal to those without a garage or designated spot to plug-in, Blink's billing rates will have to change. Charging a flat $1/hour simply isn't going to fly when they probably only need a couple hours of charging and don't want to have to bother to move their car when it's done charging every time they need to plug in.

It will have to happen eventually. Or as you say multiplex QC stations. Blink kind of has those with their current station, but unfortunately it can only charge one car at a time. At least it has the potential to reduce wait times when switching cars.

Tesla is the only company building real multiplex QC stations, and they are pushing them out with up to 10 plugs per location. This is one very likely future of EVs - just need to get the price of the car down to where normal people can afford it.

 

[walterbays]

But to really appeal to those without a garage or designated spot to plug-in, Blink's billing rates will have to change. Charging a flat $1/hour simply isn't going to fly when they probably only need a couple hours of charging and don't want to have to bother to move their car when it's done charging every time they need to plug in.

evGo's subscription plans are good for such people, a flat monthly rate for all you can drive, charging anywhere anytime. I think they're currently offered in Texas. The problem is that flat monthly rate is a terrible deal for anyone who does have a garage or assigned parking space. I hope that by the time evGo comes to California they figure out that they might need more than one pricing plan to appeal to more people. The consent agreement with the state forcing them to open their network to a la carte users at a reasonable fee might just help them figure it out.