How can we Encourage ICE drivers to adopt EVs?

[aqn]

Most EV owners are installing the EVSE at up to $2000. That's much higher than all the maintenence items combined.

Now you're pointing and laughing at The Emperor.

:?:

I'm saying that your pointing out that "low total cost of ownership" for a LEAF being questionable is akin to laughing at the Emperor's new clothes while everybody is ooh-aah-ing over it.

 

[Jimmydreams]

No, I don't only drive 20-30 miles a day, but even with my L2 EVSE, there have been one or two occasions already where I was able to squeak by and BARELY continue to use my Leaf rather than jump in my ICE. Life throws you curveballs.

I'm good at hitting curveballs.

Then it sounds like you'll be ok. It was sounding to me like you were unhappy with the prices/headaches of installing an EVSE and would just live without one. Doing so requires more diligence when it comes to available charge and charging time. If you're good with that, then enjoy!!

It's current "week of April 21", which is why I want to know more about your driving situation, not to change my mind and get an EVSE, but to know whether I should be cringing at the prospect of being EVSE-less. From what I can gather, L1 charging is more than sufficient for me.

I hope the date remains valid for you!! If you're good with curveballs, then it sounds like L1 will be ok for you. For most, however, I remain skeptical that a 'curveball' won't send someone running to the internet screaming about how bad the car is or how they got screwed by Nissan, etc.

 

[tps]

Show people your "charge anywhere" kit.

A compact, plug-in, 120v/240v "charging cord" (EVSE) with whatever socket adapters you have.

This could be the Nissan-included L1 EVSE ... with the 240v mod, and adapters. Only costs an extra $198 (the mod) + $25 (the 120v adapter) + tax & shipping, and possibly 1 to 5 adapter-pigtalis (+$20 each, for making your own adapters).

Perhaps $450 total, including around $100 for a few extra plugs to fit various RV, dryer, etc. sockets.

Also, we still hope the SPX compact, plug-in, all-voltage EVSE will become available.

I'd be very selective about showing the modified EVSE. Probably OK for geeky types, but the "complexity" might be overwhelming to "normal folk" and a turnoff. Remember, one of the major aims of J1772 was to make hooking an EV up to charge a simple, foolproof operation. For the average driver, I think it best that we wait until the infrastucture of public J1772 EVSE suits their needs, rather than telling them how to sidestep the problem. Charging at home already suits the needs of many (me included), so I'd say "pre-qualify" 'em, as mwlash said. That said, the geek in me will probably waste some money on a fancy portable EVSE, not because it solves a problem that would often occur, but because its fun to play with.

 

[garygid]

tps,
Very good point!
If you show the "L1" EVSE, perhaps just show it as a simple 120v plug-in "anywhere" cord.

----
aqs,
If L1 charging is a constraint:
Consider getting the "included" L1 EVSE upgraded to L1/L2 operation by our "mad/miraculous modder". Then, just install/find a suitable and sufficently convenient 240v socket for 10-hour L2 (240v) 12-amp charging?

 

[cdub]

I agree about cost savings! It knocked me out of my chair when I got the real world results for our first 1800 miles of driving. The LEAF and other EV's have a very bright future because people are tired of the oil monopoly. Americans want freedom of choice and practical EV's give that. In the end, most people will discover on their own how much better EV's are and some will still think the center of the known universe is Texas. I plan to focus my efforts on the people that want a choice :!:

What were the cost savings for you?

 

[walterbays]

What were the cost savings for you [TRONZ]?

Though I'm not TRONZ, here are my expected cost savings. I filled up at the gas station today for $30.68. If I were driving a Leaf that same distance would have cost me 67 kWh so my cost for those miles would have been:

$9.74 - current SDG&E EV super off-peak rate
$9.33 - worst (super off-peak) of the EV Project experimental rates (L)
$5.10 - mid EVP experimental rate (M)
$4.50 - best EVP experimental rate (H)
$3.36 - proposed PV feed-in tariff; the cost of putting that electricity into my car instead of selling it back to SDG&E
$25.78 - on-peak charging at EVP experimental rate that is worst for on-peak (H)

That says to me, don't worry about charging during the day when you need to: it's still cheaper than gasoline. Just charge at night whenever possible. Which should be almost all the time; and I guess that's one of the main things the EV Project seeks to find out. I wish Nissan and/or Aerovironment would get the charger timer(s) fixed so that one could always reliably charge at night. I hate all the stories about glitches.

It's worth noting that if I were driving an SUV instead of a Prius my fill-up to go the same mileage would have been $60 instead of $30. $3-5 is quite a bargain.

The real advantage though comes if war engulfs the oil producing countries, and gas goes to $10/gallon and/or is rationed. In that event - which I earnestly do not hope for - I expect I might be giving rides to neighbors pretty often. Leaf looks like pretty good "insurance" against that eventuality, even if we're fortunate enough never to use the insurance.

 

[TRONZ]

Most EV owners are installing the EVSE at up to $2000. That's much higher than all the maintenence items combined.

Maintenance?!? People like you will spend $2000 in 6 months on just gasoline alone with nothing to show for it but higher gas prices! This is known as working to service the cost of a liability. On the other hand, savvy people will choose to invest $2000 buying an EVSE because it enables the freedom to access very inexpensive fuel. The investment will cover over 10+ years of use and is saving them money every time they charge up. We haven't even gotten to the fact that a perfectly great L1 EVSE comes free with the car or that it can be converted to a L2 EVSE for $200. That would be $.05 a day over the life of the EVSE.

Do you want to get started on the fact that the LEAF also has no maintenance...?

 

[Train]

Maintenance?!? People like you will spend $2000 in 6 months on just gasoline alone with nothing to show for it but higher gas prices! This is known as working to service the cost of a liability. On the other hand, savvy people will choose to invest $2000 buying an EVSE because it enables the freedom to access very inexpensive fuel. The investment will cover over 10+ years of use and is saving them money every time they charge up. We haven't even gotten to the fact that a perfectly great L1 EVSE comes free with the car or that it can be converted to a L2 EVSE for $200. That would be $.05 a day over the life of the EVSE.

Do you want to get started on the fact that the LEAF also has no maintenance...?

People like me? LOL You know nothing about people like me. Save the altruism for people who care about that sort of thing. I spent $2000 for fuel the last two years. In six months I spent around $550.

The poster I responded to was discussing maintenance. If you're going to include fuel costs, then indeed, that EVSE must be counted with the electricity costs.

My car gets 30 mpg. I drive 10,000 miles a year. I'll spend just over $1000 for gas in the entire year.

Look, this has been done to death. Even putting the EVSE costs aside, if you're going to include a ten year period, then throw the cost of another battery in there. How much will that be in ten years? $10,000? $8000? Plus labor costs?

If the Leaf has no maintenance, why does it have a maintenance schedule?

 

[AndyH]

I spent $2000 for fuel the last two years. In six months I spent around $550.

The poster I responded to was discussing maintenance. If you're going to include fuel costs, then indeed, that EVSE must be counted with the electricity costs.

My car gets 30 mpg. I drive 10,000 miles a year. I'll spend just over $1000 for gas in the entire year.

Maybe last year - how about next year?

Even putting the EVSE costs aside, if you're going to include a ten year period, then throw the cost of another battery in there. How much will that be in ten years? $10,000? $8000? Plus labor costs?

How certain are you that the Leaf will need a battery in 10 years? Based on real-world experience from lower-performing NiMH EVs, the battery will be alive and well at the 10 year mark.

If the Leaf has no maintenance, why does it have a maintenance schedule?

Any mechanical device has a maintenance schedule. The beauty of EVs is what's NOT on the schedule.

 

[Smidge204]

People like me? LOL You know nothing about people like me. Save the altruism for people who care about that sort of thing. I spent $2000 for fuel the last two years. In six months I spent around $550.

Believe it or not, it was just yesterday that I shelled out ~$475 for a new water pump. It's very much impractical to drive an ICE-powered car without a functioning water pump... Drive a mile, pull over, pop the hood and wait 10 minutes. Drive a mile, pull over, pop the hood and wait 10 minutes. I know because that's how I got home on Friday - one mile at a time for 10 miles. Talk to me about service costs! :lol:

And since you mentioned it I've spent $2,471.557 on gas since I got my car in June of 2007. Tack on $1,415.82 in maintenance (not including insurance) and total cost of ownership has been $0.17/mi. I'd be very interested in how this stacks up with a LEAF (or other EV) if anyone has been keeping records.
=Smidge=

 

[JasonT]

Although I agree that the (possibly) $2,000 EVSE cost should be brought up when discussing EV vs ICE costs, I do not think it is fair to compare it to maintenance costs on an ICE. The big difference that the EVSE has over other things is that it isn't car specific. Buy a new EV, or even "just" a plug-in car, and the same EVSE can be utilized. It's maybe more comparable to someone who buys car jacks so he can work on his car himself. There are many car people that feel having real jacks are a necessity to having a car (and I get that) - while I personally have gotten by with just the cheesy jack that comes with the car (admittedly, I don't do work on my car). Some will be fine with the 120V EVSE, while most are going to want the 240V (myself included, although depending on timing I may be living with the 120V for a little while)

Not the perfect analogy, but I think it's closer to being right than trying to compare it to maintenance costs.

 

[davewill]

Believe it or not, it was just yesterday that I shelled out ~$475 for a new water pump. It's very much impractical to drive an ICE-powered car without a functioning water pump... Drive a mile, pull over, pop the hood and wait 10 minutes. Drive a mile, pull over, pop the hood and wait 10 minutes. I know because that's how I got home on Friday - one mile at a time for 10 miles. Talk to me about service costs! :lol:

And since you mentioned it I've spent $2,471.557 on gas since I got my car in June of 2007. Tack on $1,415.82 in maintenance (not including insurance) and total cost of ownership has been $0.17/mi. I'd be very interested in how this stacks up with a LEAF (or other EV) if anyone has been keeping records.
=Smidge=

The problem is that for you to need a water pump on a 2007 car, you either put on a lot of miles, neglected maintenance, or had a premature failure. Besides, even if it's normal wear, there aren't any Leafs out there with a similar time in service to compare to.

 

[Smidge204]

The problem is that for you to need a water pump on a 2007 car, you either put on a lot of miles, neglected maintenance, or had a premature failure. Besides, even if it's normal wear, there aren't any Leafs out there with a similar time in service to compare to.

Well it's a 2004 model that I got in 2007 as "certified pre-owned." Still, with ~55k miles you wouldn't expect a water pump... but a lot of vehicle maintenance costs tend to be unexpected don't they?

And I'm aware that LEAFs don't have enough road time yet, but I'm just hoping there's enough geek blood in the early adopters to be keeping records for comparisons.
=Smidge=

 

[TRONZ]

Well, we are at seven weeks and a bit under 2000 miles. The only cost has been electricity and will be for the forseeable future. Average is $.033 a mile or $66, but that's without subtracting all the free L2 charging we have done. The actual cost is less.

And yes, EVSE's are more like a permanent, clean home appliance than a used oil filter.

 

[davewill]

Well it's a 2004 model that I got in 2007 as "certified pre-owned." Still, with ~55k miles you wouldn't expect a water pump... but a lot of vehicle maintenance costs tend to be unexpected don't they?

And I'm aware that LEAFs don't have enough road time yet, but I'm just hoping there's enough geek blood in the early adopters to be keeping records for comparisons.
=Smidge=

No, I wouldn't have, but some of those maintenance items should be done every so often even if you haven't put on the usual number of miles. As far as unexpected maintenance, yes a lot is unexpected, but if you're not working with a large sample size, you want to eliminate the "abnormal" ones in your comparison.

Anyway, I'm quite sure there are plenty of anal-retentive record keepers in here that will be able to provide data a few miles down the road...

 

[aqn]

If the original list of "reasons to drive an EV" raises a lively debate even among this choir of converts, what are the chances that "lay people" will receive it warmly?!

 

[davewill]

If the original list of "reasons to drive an EV" raises a lively debate even among this choir of converts, what are the chances that "lay people" will receive it warmly?!

A lot of the reasons are individual, and have to do with beliefs about the future cost of energy, both monetary and ecological. There's little doubt than an absolutely ruthless dollars and cents analysis based on today's prices would probably show me that I should have bought a Corolla. :| And that's with huge incentives. I still believe that I will do better than that ultimately, and that my small efforts will help, at least a little, in changing a rather dismal looking (to me) future.

 

[aqn]

If the original list of "reasons to drive an EV" raises a lively debate even among this choir of converts, what are the chances that "lay people" will receive it warmly?!

I still believe that I will do better than that ultimately, and that my small efforts will help, at least a little, in changing a rather dismal looking (to me) future.

As do I. As do all of us here, I'm sure. But it's not us we're trying to "encourage to adopt EVs"!

There will be some (many?) ICE vehicle owners who respond to the "do good" reasons, but I believe that until economy of scale brings the cost of EV ownership down, EVs will not enter the mainstream of U.S. personal transportation. Until then, I'm glad that there are those like us who, with a little help from the Big Bad Gummint, are beginning to tip the EV's economy of scale.

 

[walterbays]

How about a fairy tale?

A man was grumbling about high gasoline prices, having just paid $100 to fill up, when he was visited by the Oil Fairy. "I'll take care of that problem for you," she said, "and you'll never have to visit a gas station again, but in return you must make a bargain with me." The man knew that bargains were the way of fairy folk, and he asked what the bargain was. "Every night put a dollar bill under your windshield wiper, and in the morning your gas tank will magically be filled 1/3 full. But," the Oil Fairy cackled, "you never CAN visit a gas station again, and so your tank can never be more than 1/3 full." The man thought, and realized that 1/3 of a tank was more than enough to take him around his daily errands, and so he agreed to the bargain. "Oho!" the fairy laughed, tearing off her grimy oily gown to reveal a beautiful spotless white gown underneath, "there's just one more little thing. I'm not really the Oil Fairy. I'm the Electric Fairy." And with that she seized the man's tailpipe, ripped it and the muffler from his car, and flew away into a thunderstorm never to be seen again.

 

[Lanzer]

Much like how BMW made their mark in the industry by winning races, I think EV just need to begin winning car races and show the world that when it comes to speed and performance, EV can deliver more cool and more adrenalin. When it shakes the golf cart image and become rubber burning machines that can be the icon of the new cool, then EV will become an object of desire. When EV reaches such a status, then anything logical won't be necessary to sell the new car.

Of course, things like that aren't really in our power to help promote. Continuing to push for the practicality of owning an EV is probably the best way to go.