Is Leaf right for me?

[jpa2825]

Just remembered I have all of my data on gas mileage from the Audi since I acquired it almost 2 years ago. Here it is for comparison purposes:

597 days
22,658 miles
1,191.86 gallons
$3,949.29 gas cost
37.95 miles/day
13,521 miles/year
2.00 gal/day
$3.31 avg $/gal*
$6.61 $/day

* - this includes some cents/gallon off earned through Kroger purchases which I ALWAYS take since the Audi has the largest tank (~22.5 gal) and I always drive my car to absolute E before filling up

Suggests a 12k/yr. lease is probably do-able since there are several trips that were made in the Audi which would not be made in the Leaf.

 

[jpa2825]

i might consider option D to be get used car for Son and Leaf for house. granted, lower miles driven means gas payback will be questionable, but i have to think the miles driven by your Son is subject to change within a few years. <snip>

Good point. Would sort of need to count on the wife "loving the Leaf" if/when the 16 yo goes to college in Fall 2014 and we go back to 2 cars for 2 people. I would need to take her car on ICE trips. That said, there may be EV charging stations all over the place by then.

 

[GRA]

With only 12k miles a year on a lease, you'll have to drive some other car for some of your commuting if you don't want to pay extra mileage penalties. Even if you never drive the Leaf for anything other than your commute, 51 miles x 5 days = 255 x 48 weeks = 12,240 miles, 1,020 miles/month or 39,780 miles in 39 months vice 39,000 allowed. Realistically, you're going to do some errand and lunch runs as well, so you should factor that into your costing.

 

[Nubo]

i might consider option D to be get used car for Son and Leaf for house. granted, lower miles driven means gas payback will be questionable, but i have to think the miles driven by your Son is subject to change within a few years. <snip>

Good point. Would sort of need to count on the wife "loving the Leaf" if/when the 16 yo goes to college in Fall 2014 and we go back to 2 cars for 2 people. I would need to take her car on ICE trips. That said, there may be EV charging stations all over the place by then.

My wife wasn't all that excited about the LEAF at first. She was happy I'd got what I wanted but other than that...

The thing that really turned her head was being able to start the climate control via iphone. Now she sometimes asks for the LEAF

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

With only 12k miles a year on a lease, you'll have to drive some other car for some of your commuting if you don't want to pay extra mileage penalties. Even if you never drive the Leaf for anything other than your commute, 51 miles x 5 days = 255 x 48 weeks = 12,240 miles, 1,020 miles/month or 39,780 miles in 39 months vice 39,000 allowed. Realistically, you're going to do some errand and lunch runs as well, so you should factor that into your costing.

i am guessing a 15,000 mile lease would only be a few bucks more

 

[Herm]

Suggests a 12k/yr. lease is probably do-able since there are several trips that were made in the Audi which would not be made in the Leaf.

That 40 miles a day comes up a lot in many transportation studies.. if you only drove your Leaf 40 miles a day the battery would last a long time, as long as dont live in AZ.

 

[Boomer23]

About your 16 y.o. son and your Audi, a few thoughts:
A. Do you want such a powerful car in a new (especially male) driver's hands?
B. Are you prepared to watch such a fine car trashed by a 16 year old? Your son may not be like mine, but mine couldn't care less about the hand-me-down cars that we gave him, and he and his friends turned them into rolling trash cans.
C. What will maintenance costs be on an older Audi?

 

[BrainDonor]

With only 12k miles a year on a lease, you'll have to drive some other car for some of your commuting if you don't want to pay extra mileage penalties. Even if you never drive the Leaf for anything other than your commute, 51 miles x 5 days = 255 x 48 weeks = 12,240 miles, 1,020 miles/month or 39,780 miles in 39 months vice 39,000 allowed. Realistically, you're going to do some errand and lunch runs as well, so you should factor that into your costing.

i am guessing a 15,000 mile lease would only be a few bucks more

A word of advice... when we leased our LEAF 6 months ago (our first lease ever!), we were replacing a 2005 Toyota 4Runner which we averaged 10K miles/year and was costing us $0.23/mile for gasoline (I used Gas Cubby, so I had an exact count of mileage/gas/etc.). We figured a 12K miles/year lease would be perfect. Fast forward 6 months... we are on track for over 16K miles/year! We are using the LEAF a lot more than we expected, not only to replace the 4Runner's miles, but we are opting to drive the LEAF in place of our other car, too. So in the end we're putting the same amount of miles in total, but with a disproportionate amount on the LEAF.

The cost to drive our remaining ICE car is also $0.23/mile, while the cost to operate the LEAF is only $0.03/mile. So even with the $0.15/mile penalty (if I decide not to buy the car at the end of the lease), the operating cost is less than if we were to drive the LEAF only 12K miles/year and use the ICE car for the remainder.

Moral of the story is to go for 15K miles/year and not have to worry about it... ;-)

 

[jpa2825]

About your 16 y.o. son and your Audi, a few thoughts:
A. Do you want such a powerful car in a new (especially male) driver's hands?
B. Are you prepared to watch such a fine car trashed by a 16 year old? Your son may not be like mine, but mine couldn't care less about the hand-me-down cars that we gave him, and he and his friends turned them into rolling trash cans.
C. What will maintenance costs be on an older Audi?

A - a very reasonable question and concern of mine; I do have one of those "bread crumb" GPS units, but haven't used it yet
B - my wife has same concern; with me likely driving the Audi on occasion (1x/wk for longer trips or when Leaf is too discharged), I will get some feedback on how the car is being treated; although it stickered at $70k, it's current value with 150k miles on it is probably ~$6k even though it is in good shape
C - I have maintained it pretty well over last 2 years with private mechanic that works at Audi dealer, so I think I have some $ into it that I would not get back out if I sold it. That said, Audi's, like most luxury vehicles, are more expensive to maintain. Only advantage now is that I probably don't have to do any of the cosmetic or "would like to do" fixes since I hope someone in the family will drive until the wheels fall off

 

[jpa2825]

With only 12k miles a year on a lease, you'll have to drive some other car for some of your commuting if you don't want to pay extra mileage penalties. Even if you never drive the Leaf for anything other than your commute, 51 miles x 5 days = 255 x 48 weeks = 12,240 miles, 1,020 miles/month or 39,780 miles in 39 months vice 39,000 allowed. Realistically, you're going to do some errand and lunch runs as well, so you should factor that into your costing.

i am guessing a 15,000 mile lease would only be a few bucks more

A word of advice... when we leased our LEAF 6 months ago (our first lease ever!), we were replacing a 2005 Toyota 4Runner which we averaged 10K miles/year and was costing us $0.23/mile for gasoline (I used Gas Cubby, so I had an exact count of mileage/gas/etc.). We figured a 12K miles/year lease would be perfect. Fast forward 6 months... we are on track for over 16K miles/year! We are using the LEAF a lot more than we expected, not only to replace the 4Runner's miles, but we are opting to drive the LEAF in place of our other car, too. So in the end we're putting the same amount of miles in total, but with a disproportionate amount on the LEAF.

The cost to drive our remaining ICE car is also $0.23/mile, while the cost to operate the LEAF is only $0.03/mile. So even with the $0.15/mile penalty (if I decide not to buy the car at the end of the lease), the operating cost is less than if we were to drive the LEAF only 12K miles/year and use the ICE car for the remainder.

Moral of the story is to go for 15K miles/year and not have to worry about it... ;-)

I think you are correct on that subject. No need to add "$0.15 over mile" anxiety to range anxiety and battery life anxiety. (Although the lease itself reduces some of the battery life anxiety since I suspect we will have many more reliable data points and cost figures at the end of the lease than we do now on the subject.)

 

[jpa2825]

Continuing to research and having a difficult time making a decision. Below is the back & forth I have had with the local dealer (who has been very good to work with -- low pressure, totally accommodating on an overnight test drive, factual information, etc.). Just having a difficult time with the $. Any advice you can provide greatly appreciated.

Dealer Initial Summary
The SV model is what you want . It leases for $367 plus tax plus $1,135. Up front to start (that includes 1st month and fees). 12k miles a year for 39 months. The residual value at the end is $16,365. Let me know if you want to order one. It would take most probably a few months, or I could see if there was one in dealer inventory I could get quicker. But first you should take it for a spin overnight and put it through its paces. Let me know your thoughts.

JPA Inquiry
Would like the following information if you can provide it:
Actual Purchase price of SL Model (including destination charge, dealer items, prep fees, etc. & backing out $7,500 tax credit NMAC gets to keep)
Residual Value and Purchase Price at end of Term
Money Factor used by NMAC (assume a very high credit score if that matters)
Term of 36 or 39 months
Miles driven of 12k or 15k
Cost per mile over limit (assume $0.15)
Acquisition Fee (is there a fee added to purchase price to lease?)
Purchase Option Fee (what does NMAC charge to buy at end of term if I decide to do so?)
Disposition Fee (what does NMAC charge to take the car back if I decide to return it & walk away?)
Likelihood of finding "orphaned" SL Model in dealer inventory
Likely lead time from order to delivery if I order one (typical range; I know this is a bit of an unknown)
Security Deposit (I don't think there is one)
Cash down and what does it include / exclude (perhaps $0 down, ~$2k down and ~$4k down options)?

Dealer Response #1
We can build one for you if you let us know by tomorrow afternoon. Delivery in August. Or there are a few showing in Chicago with the cost to truck it back. Answers to your questions below:
SL would be $396 plus tax; 39 months; 12k/yr; $0.15/mile over; capital cost/actual purchase price $38,270 less $7,500 = $30,770; residual value $17,222; money factor of .00071; acquisition fee $595; purchase option fee $300; disposition fee $350; security deposit $0; cash down is 1st month+$250 doc fee, $36.75 title fees, taxes on rebates = $1,240.15

JPA Response #1
Couple of additional / follow up questions:
1 - approx. cost to truck from Chicago?
2 - confirming #s below: $1,240.15 out of pocket at signing followed by 38 payments of $396 + tax and then either $300 + $17,222 to purchase OR $350 to turn it back in and walk away at the end of the lease, right?
3 - any idea what the "+ tax" on the $396 would be in KY or where I could find that?
4 - is 15k miles per year an option? If so, impact on costs below over same term?

Dealer Response #2
Truck from Chicago about $600. You are correct in upfront cost and end of term choices. Tax will take payment to $422/mo. 15k miles per year raises payment $11/mo. You are better off leasing to hedge the risk of future residual. It does not make any difference to us which way you go on the vehicle. A lot of new vehicles that start out great end up in the recycle bin in value when something goes wrong (ie. Vega, Audi 5000, Cadillac diesel, early Hyundai's).

 

[KayserNissan]

Trucking from Chicago is about right....instead of letting them just charge you $600, offer to just pay for the shipping, $600 is hitting it high to be safe, but you might luck out and have it only $350-450. Not a ton of money, but just something to consider.

The money factor does not appear to be marked up (which dealers can do, and is mildly common). They are using Tier 0 which is 730-740+ credit score. It is possible that Kentucky is a different 'region' than Wisconsin here, and have different rates, but .00071 is the 'buy rate' on leases here.

Looks like a sticker deal, but that seems to be pretty much the norm aside from Fontana

All in all, looks like a decent deal. Hope you move forward with it!

 

[kubel]

I also went with 39 months, 15,000 miles lease. I plan to not worry about going over on my miles or excessive wear and tear. I'm going to drive, maintain, and modify the car as if I owned it. Then towards the end of the lease, I'll see where I'm at. A quick google search then should tell me what the actual residual is on the car. Then I can compare that to the projected residual. If the actual residual - my mileage overage and wear and tear fees is more than the projected residual + disposition fee, I'll buy the lease out. Otherwise, I turn it back in. It's really simple.

The lease is actually the safest way to get the car (since the residual is a big unknown), so don't allow any anxiety about the lease get to you. I would be more anxious about the car if I owned it instead of leasing.

 

[jpa2825]

Still on the fence and examining the "pros" and "cons." Just got this E-mail from the Dealer. (I had previously let him know I was still struggling with the decision but that if he got an extra allocation OR if he found 1 close he could trade for OR someone walked away from one, to let me know.) He has been remarkably straight with me from the outset. I'm sure there is some "marketing" in the communication, but I am not troubled by that. Just wondering if the shortened order to delivery time will help push me over the edge to take the plunge at 39 mos. / 15k miles.


"Our Rep has offered an extra leaf that we can get in a few weeks. He has a selection we could pick from on a first come first basis. Do you want to act now?"

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Trucking from Chicago is about right....instead of letting them just charge you $600, offer to just pay for the shipping, $600 is hitting it high to be safe, but you might luck out and have it only $350-450. Not a ton of money, but just something to consider.

The money factor does not appear to be marked up (which dealers can do, and is mildly common). They are using Tier 0 which is 730-740+ credit score. It is possible that Kentucky is a different 'region' than Wisconsin here, and have different rates, but .00071 is the 'buy rate' on leases here.

Looks like a sticker deal, but that seems to be pretty much the norm aside from Fontana

All in all, looks like a decent deal. Hope you move forward with it!

Your Leafs in stock are customer orders or for regular sale?

 

[dusty2050]

WARNING WARNING WARNING

Do not buy this car if where you live ever gets above 90 degress (and thats pushing it)..

Dealers like this one in Oklahoma City are leaving the cars on their lot with very high state of charge! Even the manual states not to do it. You may be buying a car that is already about to loose a capacity bar!!! Be careful!!! Remember the cars battery capacity bars to the far right are just like the idiot oil lights in a ICE car. They only show what the manufacture has set them to show. The capacity bars will show you have full capacity all the while the cars batter is deteriorating in the hot sun!!!!

WARNING WARNING WARNING

 

[TonyWilliams]

Do not buy this car if where you live ever gets above 90 degress (and thats pushing it)..

Dealers like this one in Oklahoma City are leaving the cars on their lot with very high state of charge! Even the manual states not to do it.

That's a bit alarmist. Yes, the batteries are famously degrading, and amplified with temperature and high states of charge. But, if you're leasing the car, seriously, who cares? The only real issue I would have is recommending the car to anybody who comes close to the daily miles of what we can guess the capacity will be at the end of the lease.

I'd say with a two year lease, you'd be somewhat safe to say 25% degradation is going to be typical in a hot area. So, EPA says 73 miles, and when you subtract out the degradation, you get 53 miles. Subtract another 10 miles for reserve. Does the potential leasee drive 43 miles or less per day? For a 3 year (or 39 month) lease, I really don't know what to factor.

If the buyer is in a really cold place, then the degradation won't likely be as much from heat, but the seasonal losses from cold weather and heater use need to be considered. Driving much faster than about 65mph will severely hamper the above guidelines.

One thing I agree with you.... don't buy a hot weather car, and I wouldn't buy a LEAF under ANY circumstance right now, unless you don't care what the residual value will be (keep it forever) and you're prepared to buy new batteries during its lifespan.

 

[dusty2050]

Do not buy this car if where you live ever gets above 90 degress (and thats pushing it)..

Dealers like this one in Oklahoma City are leaving the cars on their lot with very high state of charge! Even the manual states not to do it.

That's a bit alarmist. Yes, the batteries are famously degrading, and amplified with temperature and high states of charge. But, if you're leasing the car, seriously, who cares? The only real issue I would have is recommending the car to anybody who comes close to the daily miles of what we can guess the capacity will be at the end of the lease.

I'd say with a two year lease, you'd be somewhat safe to say 25% degradation is going to be typical in a hot area. So, EPA says 73 miles, and when you subtract out the degradation, you get 53 miles. Subtract another 10 miles for reserve. Does the potential leasee drive 43 miles or less per day? For a 3 year (or 39 month) lease, I really don't know what to factor.

If the buyer is in a really cold place, then the degradation won't likely be as much from heat, but the seasonal losses from cold weather and heater use need to be considered. Driving much faster than about 65mph will severely hamper the above guidelines.

One thing I agree with you.... don't buy a hot weather car, and I wouldn't buy a LEAF under ANY circumstance right now, unless you don't care what the residual value will be (keep it forever) and you're prepared to buy new batteries during its lifespan.

I agree as well with you. As you will notice I stated if you live where the temps go over 90 degrees. And yes leasing is a good idea (wish I had leased mine) but buying one is very bad!!!!

 

[Caracalover]

@

I am planning on leasing unless someone can convince me otherwise (known depreciation for 3 yrs. & turn it in if it performs worse holding value OR buy at agreed upon amount if it performs better holding value), but market of what i am actually going to be asked to pay in greater Cincinnati is hard to predict since very few have been sold / leased here

I bought, and plan on holding on to this car until the tires fall off. I am hard on vehicles, don't like to take them in for maintenance, and want it to just work when I want it to. I really resent it when I have to go out of my way because my vehicle demands it - like when it needs gasoline.

So the Leaf is perfect for me. No thought about oil changes, air filters, transmissions, catalytic converter checks, or any of those other bothersome issues those ICE vehicles have. I even charge it while driving (Regen), although that is never enough so I have learned to plug it in every night - someday I may be able to eliminate that as well - which will be truly sweet.

You are looking at the up front cost perhaps more than the longevity aspect of this vehicle. Can you further reduce your cost for electricity? Wind and solar are becoming easier and easier for households to invest in, and with an EV the savings are dramatic. I drive for free. Yes, free. So what used to be a $300+ a month gasoline habit is now reduced to about $50.

Sure the battery may need to be replaced at some point, but it is likely that when that is required it will be far less expensive than it is now and it will likely be a better, lighter battery. I fear the future price of gasoline, not the future price of batteries.

Be sure to factor in the cost of gasoline, brake work, and of course oil changes. The Leaf I own has almost 20,000 miles on it now, and has very little (Less than 5%) brake wear, and I cross a 3500' mountain every Sunday. The Volt requires premium gasoline BTW.

I would have loved to learn how to drive in a Leaf, and learning to conserve the charge will teach your son discipline in a way that no gas powered car will ever be able to. With an active household, you may find you and the family will fight to take the Leaf, and the one that will drive the furthest in its range will get to take the car - with a Lease you may find that 12.000 miles is not enough. I put 17.000 on mine in the first year (2 person household), and believe that many of the worry issues presented by others here are unwarranted although they are (to some extent) true. Some conveniences are worth the inconviences that are required to have them. If I have to turn off the heater or drive a bit slower to get home it doesn't bother me, if it would bother you than perhaps you are not ready for the all electric vehicle, and a Volt will be an introduction that will keep you warm and fuzzy inside at the same time. For me, creating heat every time I go anywhere (In an ICE) bugs me. (75% or more of all gasoline burned in an ICE goes toward heat production.) A billion space heaters on this planet being used just to get us around? Not mine. What is your sons thought on this decision? I would think a parent would like his son to hit 18 yrs old with a car that has a limited range, but that is perhaps just me. So if you factor all that in, you may opt to buy, not lease.

I am glad I bought, one less thing to think about concerning my cars needs. My car is not my baby, it is a well designed way to get around town. Too many other cars I have owned act like children, whining they need fuel, or a yellow warning light is going off for this or that. The Leaf is a very pleasant change from that.

 

[Caracalover]

Also, without an L2 charger, getting a fulll charge after a full commute over 8-10 hours might be a challenge.

I used L1 charging for the first year I owned mine, and the only time it was an issue was when I was out late and wanted to drive 70 miles over a mountain the next day, leaving at 6 AM.

Are you really only home for 8-10 hours a night?

Buying also makes the investment in an L2 more worthwhile. I upgraded my EVSE and now plug into my dryer outlet, and sometimes wonder how I managed with the L1, but I did. You could (if you buy) do the same thing and when you need a faster charge use your existing dryer outlet. Not sure how much they would charge you if at the end of the lease you tried to give them back an upgraded EVSE, they might not notice I suppose.