Is Leaf right for me?

[lkkms2]

I bought, and plan on holding on to this car until the tires fall off. I .........don't like to take them in for maintenance, and want it to just work when I want it to. I really resent it when I have to go out of my way because my vehicle demands it - like when it needs gasoline.

So the Leaf is perfect for me. No thought about oil changes, air filters, transmissions, catalytic converter checks, or any of those other bothersome issues those ICE vehicles have. ..........

You are looking at the up front cost perhaps more than the longevity aspect of this vehicle. Can you further reduce your cost for electricity? Wind and solar are becoming easier and easier for households to invest in, and with an EV the savings are dramatic. I drive for free. Yes, free. So what used to be a $300+ a month gasoline habit is now reduced to about $50.

Sure the battery may need to be replaced at some point, but it is likely that when that is required it will be far less expensive than it is now and it will likely be a better, lighter battery. I fear the future price of gasoline, not the future price of batteries.

............The Leaf I own has almost 20,000 miles on it now, and has very little (Less than 5%) brake wear, and I cross a 3500' mountain every Sunday. ........

...............Some conveniences are worth the inconviences that are required to have them. If I have to turn off the heater or drive a bit slower to get home it doesn't bother me, if it would bother you than perhaps you are not ready for the all electric vehicle, and a Volt will be an introduction that will keep you warm and fuzzy inside at the same time. For me, creating heat every time I go anywhere (In an ICE) bugs me. (75% or more of all gasoline burned in an ICE goes toward heat production.) A billion space heaters on this planet being used just to get us around? ..........

I am glad I bought, one less thing to think about concerning my cars needs. My car is not my baby, it is a well designed way to get around town. Too many other cars I have owned act like children, whining they need fuel, or a yellow warning light is going off for this or that. The Leaf is a very pleasant change from that.

+1 enjoyed your descriptions. I bought too and glad I did. If you normally drive 30, 40, 50 miles a day like I do it is great. If you drive a lot more distance everyday and are that concerned about the life of the battery, leasing is an option for you.

I too fear the future price of gasoline, not the future price of batteries. And I fear the current costs and impacts too our environment if we don't invest in newer, cleaner technologies.

Glad I bought! Oh, I said that already.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I bought, and plan on holding on to this car until the tires fall off. I .........don't like to take them in for maintenance, and want it to just work when I want it to. I really resent it when I have to go out of my way because my vehicle demands it - like when it needs gasoline.

So the Leaf is perfect for me. No thought about oil changes, air filters, transmissions, catalytic converter checks, or any of those other bothersome issues those ICE vehicles have. ..........

You are looking at the up front cost perhaps more than the longevity aspect of this vehicle. Can you further reduce your cost for electricity? Wind and solar are becoming easier and easier for households to invest in, and with an EV the savings are dramatic. I drive for free. Yes, free. So what used to be a $300+ a month gasoline habit is now reduced to about $50.

Sure the battery may need to be replaced at some point, but it is likely that when that is required it will be far less expensive than it is now and it will likely be a better, lighter battery. I fear the future price of gasoline, not the future price of batteries.

............The Leaf I own has almost 20,000 miles on it now, and has very little (Less than 5%) brake wear, and I cross a 3500' mountain every Sunday. ........

...............Some conveniences are worth the inconviences that are required to have them. If I have to turn off the heater or drive a bit slower to get home it doesn't bother me, if it would bother you than perhaps you are not ready for the all electric vehicle, and a Volt will be an introduction that will keep you warm and fuzzy inside at the same time. For me, creating heat every time I go anywhere (In an ICE) bugs me. (75% or more of all gasoline burned in an ICE goes toward heat production.) A billion space heaters on this planet being used just to get us around? ..........

I am glad I bought, one less thing to think about concerning my cars needs. My car is not my baby, it is a well designed way to get around town. Too many other cars I have owned act like children, whining they need fuel, or a yellow warning light is going off for this or that. The Leaf is a very pleasant change from that.

+1 enjoyed your descriptions. I bought too and glad I did. If you normally drive 30, 40, 50 miles a day like I do it is great. If you drive a lot more distance everyday and are that concerned about the life of the battery, leasing is an option for you.

I too fear the future price of gasoline, not the future price of batteries. And I fear the current costs and impacts too our environment if we don't invest in newer, cleaner technologies.

Glad I bought! Oh, I said that already.

i could not have said it better

 

[dgpcolorado]

While I also bought my LEAF, primarily because the Colorado tax credit is substantially reduced when leasing, I have some misgivings. I would like to believe that "it is likely that when that is required it will be far less expensive than it is now and it will likely be a better, lighter battery", it is by no means certain. If the LEAF fails as a product and Nissan gives up on it, whether due to the rapid capacity loss in hot climate areas, or just the unwillingness of car buyers to purchase a limited range car, or a change in corporate strategy with the departure of Carlos Ghosn, how will batteries get cheaper, better, lighter? Will Nissan even be making LEAF battery packs five or ten years from now? It isn't as if they can be stockpiled for future use like fenders or headlights!

I am hopeful that when it comes time to replace the battery pack there will be a new one available at a reasonable price. But there is a distinct possibility that won't happen. Economies-of-scale need "scale" to happen. And there is no sign whatsoever of that happening thus far.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Economies-of-scale need "scale" to happen. And there is no sign whatsoever of that happening thus far.

People weren't buying the LEAF before the battery issues. I think this will be very difficult for a 2013 model with the same battery.

Which means infrastructure becomes a more difficult issue (without the cars). And then people don't buy the car because of limited range, no infrastructure, and known battery issues. We need the LEAF to succeed in VOLUME, but I agree with you; no sign whatsoever.

 

[Caracalover]

Economies-of-scale need "scale" to happen. And there is no sign whatsoever of that happening thus far.

People weren't buying the LEAF before the battery issues. I think this will be very difficult for a 2013 model with the same battery.

Which means infrastructure becomes a more difficult issue (without the cars). And then people don't buy the car because of limited range, no infrastructure and known battery issues. We need the LEAF to succeed in VOLUME, but I agree with you; no sign whatsoever.

People are buying the Leaf. It is not the perfect car yet, so it is not selling as fast as some would hope, but even you opted to buy it again (Or lease it anyway) and that shows just how great this vehicle is. Many people want one, they just can't justify it right now. So they stay addicted and try to be happy with what they bought, knowing that they are in denial.

It will take some time, but BEV's are not going away.

As for what that has to do with a choice to lease or buy right now, it has nothing to do with it. I bought mine and didn't even get the QC option - and still have never wanted to use it. I accepted what I could do with this car as it is, unlike some who want a finished infrastructure and a vehicle that has no faullts what so ever. This is a perfect car for what it is designed for. If (like Tony) you want this to be your only vehicle it may not be the car for you right now unless you are a towny that never drives very far - in which case this should be the only type (BEV) of vehicle you look at.

Some people on this board are very harsh critics of a vehicle that exceeded my expectations, and I think they spend more time writing and reading posts on this board than driving the car.

I am not against them for that, just an observation. I thank many (like Tony) for the hours of work he has done to figure out what the extremes are in this vehicle, and help to inform not only us, but Nissan what could be improved. Having said that though he often sends a mixed message about a vehicle he has an obsession with, and wants it to succeed (I believe). Most of us never stretch the vehicles limitations, whether it is an ICE or BEV. I have to wonder how many ICengines Tony destroyed testing them to the limits - I can actually envision him draining the oil and seeing how far it goes before it siezes up - he has that kind of intrest in his vehicles it seems to me.

I think there are a lot of Leaf owners out there that don't read or post anymore (like myself) since we are just too happy with the car to worry about it. We have friends interested and envious. For many the new car purchase is 3-5 years away, and at that point they will look hard and long at BEV's.

Hopefully those with more than a thousand posts will not sway them away since they are actually a disproportionate number of owners/leasees. Those that are not posting likely have a reason, and that could be satisfaction.

 

[abasile]

Many of us, rather than waiting for a more perfect EV, decided to jump in and make a dent in our personal addiction to oil. While the LEAF is not ideal for us (we could really use more range, faster L2 charging, and less heat sensitivity), it does meet the majority of our driving needs and is enjoyable to drive.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...It will take some time, but BEV's are not going away.

While I hope that this is true, it appears that it will take much longer than many were predicting for BEVs to become accepted.

As for what that has to do with a choice to lease or buy right now, it has nothing to do with it. I bought mine and didn't even get the QC option - and still have never wanted to use it. I accepted what I could do with this car as it is, unlike some who want a finished infrastructure and a vehicle that has no faullts what so ever.

I agree with this and bought a LEAF SV knowing that there was no charge station infrastructure whatsoever. I don't even have a dealer within LEAF range for service. But the car serves my needs very well and I am pleased with it thus far.

This is a perfect car for what it is designed for...

This I disagree with. Surely the rapid hot climate battery degradation makes the current LEAF far from perfect. If the car isn't appropriate for hot climates that should have been better disclosed and the car should not have been sold in those areas. Period. Meanwhile, the resale value for those of us who bought our cars figures to tank, making trading up a difficult proposition.

My concern is that if Nissan decides to end the LEAF experiment I will end up with an orphan car and no source for affordable replacement batteries. I fervently hope that does not happen because, like you, I really like the car and it greatly exceeded my expectations as to range, performance, and just being fun to drive.

 

[Caracalover]

My concern is that if Nissan decides to end the LEAF experiment I will end up with an orphan car and no source for affordable replacement batteries. I fervently hope that does not happen because, like you, I really like the car and it greatly exceeded my expectations as to range, performance, and just being fun to drive.

I do not see Nissan ending this, as a matter of fact I see them expanding the line. With the Model S proving what is possible, Nissan is the only one that is stepping up to the plate. I would be concerned with the Ford, Toyota, and other lines including GM, but not Nissan.

While they may alter some of the aspects, battery tech and the Leaf will be around for many years, and the one you own you may find you don't want to part with - at any price.

I won't give up mine unless it is for a better BEV, and even then I would have to think hard and long before I gave it up.

 

[WetEV]

Many of us, rather than waiting for a more perfect EV, decided to jump in and make a dent in our personal addiction to oil. While the LEAF is not ideal for us (we could really use more range, faster L2 charging, and less heat sensitivity), it does meet the majority of our driving needs and is enjoyable to drive.

+1

 

[TonyWilliams]

People are buying the Leaf. It is not the perfect car yet, so it is not selling as fast as some would hope, but even you opted to buy it again (Or lease it anyway) and that shows just how great this vehicle is.

Not in numbers that real car companies consider viable. Just a fact that gets more pressing with a huge, expensive factory coming online in Tennesse (with a $1.6 billion boost from Uncle Sam). That's different than hoping for a better sales number.

It will take some time, but BEV's are not going away.

That, I agree with.

This is a perfect car for what it is designed for. If (like Tony) you want this to be your only vehicle it may not be the car for you right now unless you are a towny that never drives very far - in which case this should be the only type (BEV) of vehicle you look at.

You said at the beginning that it wasn't perfect. It's a truly great vehicle at what it does well, but the limitations are many. That includes heat induced performance reduction, lack of infrastructure, slow charger, etc. Future EV's will obviously address all of these.

he often sends a mixed message about a vehicle he has an obsession with, and wants it to succeed (I believe). Most of us never stretch the vehicles limitations, whether it is an ICE or BEV. I have to wonder how many ICengines Tony destroyed testing them to the limits - I can actually envision him draining the oil and seeing how far it goes before it siezes up - he has that kind of intrest in his vehicles it seems to me.

I don't want my message mixed !!!!

I do to recommend buying this vehicle EXCEPT for those who have a short daily use, and don't care how badly the resale value may get. Even if your battery NEVER gets hot, the whole fleet will be affected by an industry known problem. Many will just be the car "with the bad batteries" at some junk yard in the future.

Leasing is fine, if you don't expect your needs to be exceeded throughout the ENTIRE term of the lease.
That means some rational thought as to how hot your environment is, and how that might affect range.

Yes, I grew up in a machine shop, and I've destroyed / rebuilt more than I can remember. I can tell you that a 1964 Chevy can go a long way in a pond with WD40 sprayed on the distributor.

 

[thankyouOB]

I bought, and plan on holding on to this car until the tires fall off. I am hard on vehicles, don't like to take them in for maintenance, and want it to just work when I want it to. I really resent it when I have to go out of my way because my vehicle demands it - like when it needs gasoline.

So the Leaf is perfect for me. No thought about oil changes, air filters, transmissions, catalytic converter checks, or any of those other bothersome issues those ICE vehicles have. I even charge it while driving (Regen), although that is never enough so I have learned to plug it in every night - someday I may be able to eliminate that as well - which will be truly sweet.

You are looking at the up front cost perhaps more than the longevity aspect of this vehicle. Can you further reduce your cost for electricity? Wind and solar are becoming easier and easier for households to invest in, and with an EV the savings are dramatic. I drive for free. Yes, free. So what used to be a $300+ a month gasoline habit is now reduced to about $50.

Sure the battery may need to be replaced at some point, but it is likely that when that is required it will be far less expensive than it is now and it will likely be a better, lighter battery. I fear the future price of gasoline, not the future price of batteries.

Be sure to factor in the cost of gasoline, brake work, and of course oil changes. The Leaf I own has almost 20,000 miles on it now, and has very little (Less than 5%) brake wear, and I cross a 3500' mountain every Sunday. The Volt requires premium gasoline BTW.

I would have loved to learn how to drive in a Leaf, and learning to conserve the charge will teach your son discipline in a way that no gas powered car will ever be able to. With an active household, you may find you and the family will fight to take the Leaf, and the one that will drive the furthest in its range will get to take the car - with a Lease you may find that 12.000 miles is not enough. I put 17.000 on mine in the first year (2 person household), and believe that many of the worry issues presented by others here are unwarranted although they are (to some extent) true. Some conveniences are worth the inconviences that are required to have them. If I have to turn off the heater or drive a bit slower to get home it doesn't bother me, if it would bother you than perhaps you are not ready for the all electric vehicle, and a Volt will be an introduction that will keep you warm and fuzzy inside at the same time. For me, creating heat every time I go anywhere (In an ICE) bugs me. (75% or more of all gasoline burned in an ICE goes toward heat production.) A billion space heaters on this planet being used just to get us around? Not mine. What is your sons thought on this decision? I would think a parent would like his son to hit 18 yrs old with a car that has a limited range, but that is perhaps just me. So if you factor all that in, you may opt to buy, not lease.

I am glad I bought, one less thing to think about concerning my cars needs. My car is not my baby, it is a well designed way to get around town. Too many other cars I have owned act like children, whining they need fuel, or a yellow warning light is going off for this or that. The Leaf is a very pleasant change from that.

I am totally in agreement with Caracalover on this.

I do think there are folks who are intent, for whatever reason, on running down the car because it doesnt meet their expectations for the vehicle.
In addition, I have observed over time that Tony will never never give up on a hobby horse that he decides deserves his considerable energy and intellect to correct. I admire Tony for his persistence and intelligence, as well as for his dedication, but his attack along with the AZ crowd on Nissan is getting old -- for me.
ymmv.

the car works for me and has saved me thousands in gasoline. it is fun to drive and has liberated me from having an ICE with all its attendant costs and problems, as well as its dependence on oil.
try reading PRIVATE EMPIRE -- my current reading material -- about the Exxon empire. Climate denial, anyone?
Read how the use their fortune to manipulate our policies, politics and even science.
enough.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I agree quite a bit with Caracalover. I am willing to forgo a few conveniences in order to drive an efficient vehicle. The thought of burning gasoline and heating my environment, just so that I can move around, seems quite selfish. I am also the kind of person who prefer not to turn my AC or heating on in my car, as long as I don't find the temps too uncomfortable, even in Texas summer.

I badgered my 15 year old son to come with me to test drive Model S over the weekend, just so that he understands the future is not with ICE and gasoline.

 

[cwerdna]

I agree quite a bit with Caracalover. I am willing to forgo a few conveniences in order to drive an efficient vehicle. The thought of burning gasoline and heating my environment, just so that I can move around, seems quite selfish. I am also the kind of person who prefer not to turn my AC or heating on in my car, as long as I don't find the temps too uncomfortable, even in Texas summer.

I badgered my 15 year old son to come with me to test drive Model S over the weekend, just so that he understands the future is not with ICE and gasoline.

Yeah, one can look at ICEVs as heaters w/the side effect of moving people and things.

It does irk me that we have to drive typically 1800 - 4000 lb. vehicles just to move ourselves around. It irks me a LOT when I see guzzler battering ram of death class SUVs (full-sized ones that weigh 5200+ lbs., sometimes into the 6000+ lb. range) being driven around solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers, which unfortunately seems to be most of them and most of the time around where I live.

 

[GRA]

I agree quite a bit with Caracalover. I am willing to forgo a few conveniences in order to drive an efficient vehicle. The thought of burning gasoline and heating my environment, just so that I can move around, seems quite selfish. I am also the kind of person who prefer not to turn my AC or heating on in my car, as long as I don't find the temps too uncomfortable, even in Texas summer.

I badgered my 15 year old son to come with me to test drive Model S over the weekend, just so that he understands the future is not with ICE and gasoline.

Yeah, one can look at ICEVs as heaters w/the side effect of moving people and things.

It does irk me that we have to drive typically 1800 - 4000 lb. vehicles just to move ourselves around. It irks me a LOT when I see guzzler battering ram of death class SUVs (full-sized ones that weigh 5200+ lbs., sometimes into the 6000+ lb. range) being driven around solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers, which unfortunately seems to be most of them and most of the time around where I live.

Any reason you couldn't move yourself around with a vehicle weighing 30-100 lb., i.e. a bicycle (or e-bike/scooter), or use transit? I mean, most urban types do have viable options, including our feet. Many of us don't _have_ to drive cars.

 

[cwerdna]

Any reason you couldn't move yourself around with a vehicle weighing 30-100 lb., i.e. a bicycle (or e-bike/scooter), or use transit? I mean, most urban types do have viable options, including our feet. Many of us don't _have_ to drive cars.

I used to bike and walk to school before I could drive but most things are too far and a bit too dangerous to use a bike.

In south San Jose, the public transit is a joke. There's a whopping 1 bus route sorta near my house. It takes way too long to get anywhere via bus and is too infrequent. It used to come by once every 30 minutes but I've had my own experiences with it not stopping and me having to wait another 30 minutes. Now that bus route only runs weekdays and it's more than an hour between buses.

The closest BART sation is 33.9 miles away (45 min drive w/o traffic) in Fremont or in Milbrae 46.6 miles away (57 minutes w/o traffic). When I was working in Mountain View, I tried using http://tripplanner.transit.511.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to see how long it'd take to get to work. By car it's 25 miles and 28-32 minutes, one way, when I went. Via public transit, not including waiting time at the starting point, it was >2.5 hours, one way. Even in the worst rush hour traffic, it wouldn't even take me 2 hours to get to work.

As I posted at http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-ii-lease.111419/page-2#post-1589187" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I was taking a class a Foothill College earlier this year that met 4 pm to 8 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays. It was ~30-35 min drive, each way for me. From Transit.511.org, if I had to take public transit to get there by 4 pm, it'd take me about 3 hours, 40 minutes to get there, including 24 minutes of walking.

And guess what? There's no way to get back the same day. I'd have to sleep on-campus or somewhere because the next available route back after class is over is at 6:38 am, the next day.

And BTW, I'm more than familiar with and have taken public transportation in cities where it's quite good (e.g. Washington DC, Tokyo, NYC, Boston, Beijing, Shanghai, Seoul, etc.)

 

[planet4ever]

When I was working in Mountain View, I tried using http://tripplanner.transit.511.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to see how long it'd take to get to work. By car it's 25 miles and 28-32 minutes, one way, when I went. Via public transit, not including waiting time at the starting point, it was >2.5 hours, one way.

I think you gave up looking too soon. When I was working in Mountain View I rode my bike to the nearest CalTrain station, put it on the train, and rode my bike from the Mountain View station to where I worked west of Moffett. It's less than 2 miles from the train station to the high-tech campuses in the Shoreline/Charleston area. There's even a great bike trail under the freeway. I don't remember my total time from home, but it was about an hour on the train (less for you), and all of that time I could be working on my computer. So my only real "commute" time was the time on my bike, and that had to be less than half an hour. It seems very likely that you would be within 5 miles of at least one of the three south San Jose CalTrain stations.

Ray

 

[cwerdna]

When I was working in Mountain View, I tried using http://tripplanner.transit.511.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to see how long it'd take to get to work. By car it's 25 miles and 28-32 minutes, one way, when I went. Via public transit, not including waiting time at the starting point, it was >2.5 hours, one way.

I think you gave up looking too soon. When I was working in Mountain View I rode my bike to the nearest CalTrain station,
...
So my only real "commute" time was the time on my bike, and that had to be less than half an hour. It seems very likely that you would be within 5 miles of at least one of the three south San Jose CalTrain stations.

Nope. I just looked at http://www.caltrain.com/stations.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and was unaware of the stations listed in zone 5, but looking at everything in zone 5 and everything that's "close" in zone 4, the closest is 10 miles away (Capitol station). I live very close to IBM Almaden Research.

Not including waiting, it's 20 min drive per Google maps to the station followed by 33 mins minimum on the train (much longer on some trains). Then, I'd need to take a shuttle from that the train station to work. Also, the times are extremely limited and didn't fit w/the schedule that I worked.

It's better than what the trip planner told me, but still totally not worth it, considering it took 28-32 mins to get work when I went. IIRC, I got the trip planner to get my commute down to 1 hour 59 minutes if I drove and parked at a light rail station ~10-15 min drive away from home.

 

[planet4ever]

Ah, so. From near Almaden Research it might not be too tough a ride down to Capitol in the morning, but I wouldn't want to face that ten mile slog back uphill to get home every night.

Ray

 

[Mog404]

My commute is similar, but is in Colorado (22 mi. total, 17 interstate). Plenty of juice during the summer for 65-80 mph Interstate and short errands.

Winter driving (temps in the teens during commute) was on the edge, but doable by slowing to 60 mph on those days when it was bitter cold and had run some errands. Never turtled, but got down to the red bars a few time. A charging station near work would be nice for those cold days...

I really enjoy the Leaf. Lots of little things I would do different like climate control and styling, but otherwise fun and dependable. Economics are as justifiable than for any new car. Like to think it is green, but not sure that is is overwhelming so. Maybe a step in the right direction.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Ah, so. From near Almaden Research it might not be too tough a ride down to Capitol in the morning, but I wouldn't want to face that ten mile slog back uphill to get home every night.

Ray

we have hills here as well and i know a friend who had a bike that had motorized assist on it. he rarely used it (he was in great shape) but said it came in handy several times on days where he was too tired to manage the hills. now his commute was not extreme in any sense. only about 8 miles one way but there was a good 300 ft elevation change with the first 200 feet or so in the first 2 miles.
he also had the luxury of being on the bike trail (Capital area/State workers have it made!) for 90+% of his commute