Leaf Warranty

[DaveEV]

With respect to battery pack capacity loss, is the loss associated more with time (i.e. number of months), or the number of charge cycles?

Well - either and both.

It depends on how you use/store the battery.

The statistic that has been discussed is that expected capacity loss should not be more than 20 percent over a 60 month period. This is purely associated with time, and not the number of charge cycles. How much does the number of charge cycles play a role in getting to the 20 percent capacity loss state? For example, if Leaf Owner A charges his pack 15 full charges per month, and Leaf Owner B charges his pack 25 full cycles per month, will both Owner A and B get to the 20 percent capacity loss state at the same time? Of course other factors are held constant for the two owners such as the rate of charge (L1, L2, L3), temperature conditions, etc.

If you hold environmental conditions the same, the battery with more cycles on it will lose capacity faster.

How much faster? It depends on those environmental conditions.

You can't really control how many cycles you put the battery through - if you need to drive the miles, you need to drive the miles.

But you do have a good deal of control over environmental conditions over the years.

Avoid charging the battery to full unless you need to.
Avoid running the battery to empty unless you need to.
Park in the shade whenever you can.
Don't quick charge unless you really need to - and then only quick charge as much as you need to get to your next destination.
Avoid sustained hard acceleration.

The owners manual when it is released will have all sorts of tips like these to maximize battery life.

 

[LBCev]

The balance of Lease vs Buy just took a strong tilt to the Lease.

There is no way I want to be arguing with a Nissan tech, in a service bay, about what does or does not constitute "gradual" loss. Or what kind of charging regimen was less-than-ideal, or any of the other reasons my Lithium Ion isn't making it to Mile #70. No thanks. Not on Rev 1.0.

Nissan makes the battery, charger, the inverter, and every goes-in/goes-out of the battery. They need to warranty it for a specific capacity, without ambiguity. If there are mandatory charging practices, they should be enforced in software.

The good news is that any battery behavior or reduced range exhibited after three years will be "normal", and not grounds for extra Lease charges.

I agree 100%. Nissan needs to specifically articulate expected degradation over time so LEAF owners and dealers alike have a clear understanding of what constitutes "normal" or "gradual" loss of capacity. This may be a deal breaker for the buy option.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The balance of Lease vs Buy just took a strong tilt to the Lease.

There is no way I want to be arguing with a Nissan tech, in a service bay, about what does or does not constitute "gradual" loss. Or what kind of charging regimen was less-than-ideal, or any of the other reasons my Lithium Ion isn't making it to Mile #70. No thanks. Not on Rev 1.0.

Nissan makes the battery, charger, the inverter, and every goes-in/goes-out of the battery. They need to warranty it for a specific capacity, without ambiguity. If there are mandatory charging practices, they should be enforced in software.

The good news is that any battery behavior or reduced range exhibited after three years will be "normal", and not grounds for extra Lease charges.

I agree 100%. Nissan needs to specifically articulate expected degradation over time so LEAF owners and dealers alike have a clear understanding of what constitutes "normal" or "gradual" loss of capacity. This may be a deal breaker for the buy option.

"normal gradual"

 

[Frank]

With respect to battery pack capacity loss, is the loss associated more with time (i.e. number of months), or the number of charge cycles?

Well - either and both.

It depends on how you use/store the battery.

The statistic that has been discussed is that expected capacity loss should not be more than 20 percent over a 60 month period. This is purely associated with time, and not the number of charge cycles. How much does the number of charge cycles play a role in getting to the 20 percent capacity loss state? For example, if Leaf Owner A charges his pack 15 full charges per month, and Leaf Owner B charges his pack 25 full cycles per month, will both Owner A and B get to the 20 percent capacity loss state at the same time? Of course other factors are held constant for the two owners such as the rate of charge (L1, L2, L3), temperature conditions, etc.

You can't really control how many cycles you put the battery through - if you need to drive the miles, you need to drive the miles.

Agreed. But I guess my questions could have been simplified by asking, "If you put less miles on the car, and have less charge cycles because of this, will this slow the rate of pack capacity loss when compared to somone that puts more miles on the car?" It seems that the answer is yes.

 

[EVDRIVER]

All other things being constant yes.

 

[smkettner]

So for those that have EVs now..... what sort of battery warranty do you have on those?

 

[Clippy]

Thanks for posting this Mr./Ms. CampbellNissan. Thanks for hosting Mr. Walsh.

Page 12 of the Quick Reference Guide is my favorite. Charger, EVSE, you've just been renamed, and just in time too.

I agree the battery warranty is disconcerting.

Change the brake fluid every 12 months?

Jebus, what the hell's going on down there? Using the stuff for coolant?

 

[mitch672]

LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or
100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty
covers any repairs needed to correct defects
in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions
listed under the heading WHAT IS NOT
COVERED. This warranty period is 96 months or
100,000 miles, whichever comes first.
---------------------------------------------------

(Under "What is not covered")

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting
from or caused by:
Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above
120F (49C) for over 24 hours.
Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C)
for over seven days.
Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the
lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state
of charge.
Physically damaging the lithium-ion battery or intentionally
attempting to reduce the life of the lithium-ion
battery.
Exposing the lithium-ion battery to contact with a
direct flame.
Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis
despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state
of charge level (98-100%).
Immersing any portion of the lithium-ion battery in
water or fluids.
Opening the lithium-ion battery enclosure or having
it serviced by someone other than a Nissan LEAF
certified technician.
Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.
Use of incompatible charging devices.
Consequential damage caused by the failure to repair
an existing problem.
GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion
batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time
and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting
from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this
warranty. See your OWNER’S MANUAL for important
tips on how to maximize the life and capacity of the
“Lithium-ion battery.”
-------------------------------------------------------

thought I would just post the text of the lithium ion battery warranty from the PDF

 

[garrytman]

Hmmm, any idea where that in cabin micro filter spot would be? Just curious.

If it's like my Maxima, it's in the back of the glove box.

 

[Frank]

All other things being constant yes.

OK, thanks. So how many charge cycles do you think Nissan is assuming when it says to expect 20 percent pack loss after 5 years? Five years of 12K miles per year of driving, and the related number of charge cycles for those many miles? The point I'm trying to bring out is that because different owners will put a wide range of annual miles on this car, the rate of pack loss will vary because of the amount of miles driven. So if your commute to work is 20 miles round trip compared to a commute of 50 miles round trip, the shorter commute should result in a greater battery life (assuming other variables are constant).

Does pack capacity loss occur when the battery is not used for a year, but every few months the battery is charged to 90 percent capacity? I would assume there would be some degredation of the battery even when it is idle, but how much?

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Let's ask this another way..
Imagine you are Joe Careful, always keeping your state of charge between 20 and 80%, hypermiling away in Eco mode blocking traffic, parking in the shade, never using DC quick charge, and generally worrying a little bit each day about your battery...

Now, after two years, your battery is down to 80% range. After three years, 70% range.
It's not "defective", and the loss is certainly gradual.

What recourse do you have? None. You can either live with reduced range each year, or finance your own battery pack replacement. Good luck selling the car, of course.

The best way Nissan can show confidence in their new magical deep-discharge no-thermal-management battery pack is to WARRANTY the damn thing to where nobody has to worry. They haven't done that, and it makes me worry all the more.

 

[mitch672]

Well, in reality, they have never mass manufactured this battery pack, and put it in the field, under actual real world conditions by users, so Nissan has an idea how the packs will perform, but nothing tests lab theories like 20,000 crazed EV enthusiasts. They are trying to limit the liability because of the unknowns, if they have to replace a large number of packs that are a significant portion of the total cost of the vehicle, it could mean financial disaster to Nissan. Perhaps with the experience gained from "Leaf 1.0", Nissan will have a more well defined warranty in "Leaf 2.0"

 

[LakeLeaf]

Well, in reality, they have never mass manufactured this battery pack, and put it in the field, under actual real world conditions by users, so Nissan has an idea how the packs will perform, but nothing tests lab theories like 20,000 crazed EV enthusiasts. They are trying to limit the liability because of the unknowns, if they have to replace a large number of packs that are a significant portion of the total cost of the vehicle, it could mean financial disaster to Nissan. Perhaps with the experience gained from "Leaf 1.0", Nissan will have a more well defined warranty in "Leaf 2.0"

I guess I see the issue a little differently. I believe that the capacity of batteries will increase substantially over the next 3, 5, 10 years. The material in the first generation batteries is recyclable, so they are not total throw aways.

With the increase in capacity and the corresponding decrease in pricing that we will see in batteries over the next few years, it seems to be a very limited risk to strongly warranty the initial adopters of this technology. Over the course of a few years, Nissan and others will gather a lot of information on battery usage and life and management and will be able to offer the best possible warranty at the lowest risk. But for the initial adopters, without a solid warranty, the risk is all on them. I know it makes no difference to a large number of early adopters, but it does make a critical difference to a good number of others. I think the lack of a solid, understandable warranty will have a negative impact on Leaf sales after the initial enthusiasts have finished purchasing. Just m.h.o.

 

[planet4ever]

Look, folks, I can understand you wish Nissan had qualified "gradual" as something like x% in y years, but clearly that is not what their lawyers told them to do. The blunt truth is that there is no fair way to define "how gradual", given wildly differing patterns of usage. The even blunter truth is that ""gradual" is already clearly defined in English in a way that will stand up in court. "Gradual" is not the opposite of "fast". It is instead the opposite of "sudden". You didn't want to hear that, did you? I'm sorry, but the warranty is clear. If the battery experiences a sudden loss of capacity within the 8 year/100K period, that is covered. Any such loss which is not sudden is not covered.

 

[planet4ever]

I doubt I have read every single post on here, but I've learned a bunch of things I didn't know before:

<snip>

• Emergency shut off: Whether you're in the "hold it down to turn off" camp, or the "panic and press the button many times camp", either one will do an emergency system shut off.

I'm sorry, Jason, but I'm afraid you misread this:

To shut off the vehicle in an emergency situation while driving, perform the following procedure:

• Rapidly push the power switch 3 consecutive times.
• Push and hold the power switch for more than 2 seconds.

That's one procedure, not two alternatives. It's the old dit-dit-dit-dah.

 

[LEAFfan]

.

 

[LEAFfan]

Look, folks, I can understand you wish Nissan had qualified "gradual" as something like x% in y years, but clearly that is not what their lawyers told them to do. The blunt truth is that there is no fair way to define "how gradual", given wildly differing patterns of usage. The even blunter truth is that ""gradual" is already clearly defined in English in a way that will stand up in court. "Gradual" is not the opposite of "fast". It is instead the opposite of "sudden". You didn't want to hear that, did you? I'm sorry, but the warranty is clear. If the battery experiences a sudden loss of capacity within the 8 year/100K period, that is covered. Any such loss which is not sudden is not covered.

Exactly! However, Nissan has already defined gradual by saying what is expected from their battery packs: 80% by the fifth year and 70% after 8, so anything less isn't gradual.

 

[planet4ever]

Exactly! However, Nissan has already defined gradual by saying what is expected from their battery packs: 80% by the fifth year and 70% after 8, so anything less isn't gradual.

Expectation is not definition. Yes, they expect that you will get that kind of use out of your battery, just as they expect you will be able to travel 100 miles on a full charge when the car is new. Both statements are probably true on average. But they don't warrant either of those things.

 

[kmp647]

what I would like to see from Nissan is a commitment to the Leaf, what I mean is that they state that they intend to offer replacment packs at reasonable prices, and that they intend to offer improved packs.

We see many manufactures abandon 1st gen products, sure they have warranty support
and replace modules, and or whole packs if necesary, but they dont offer a clear and reasonable upgrade program.

they do this and just sell the newer Generation electrics and let orphaned owners dispose of their cars.

One thing in our favor is the high lease rate, those cars with come back to nissans finance arm in 3-4 years and will need service of the packs and some replacments of packs possibly.

nissan will either have to auction the cars at a large auction group in their existing condition and take whatever loss, or recondition them at dealers as happen to some of the off-lease cars for "certified pre-owned" sale or whatever Nissan calls it.

that is there only way to recoup or sell the asset, unless the lesee buys at the end of the Lease.

it seems its a tough thing to promise though...... hard to predict and lots of liability for Nissan

still they could rough outline a replacment pack program without price info.

 

[JasonT]

I'm sorry, Jason, but I'm afraid you misread this:

To shut off the vehicle in an emergency situation while driving, perform the following procedure:

• Rapidly push the power switch 3 consecutive times.
• Push and hold the power switch for more than 2 seconds.

That's one procedure, not two alternatives. It's the old dit-dit-dit-dah.

Doh, you are right. I don't know why I read the instructions as an "or".