Los Angeles Metro Area Leafers

[garygid]

Right, I was objecting to the P.P.S. "tidbit" ... the energy circulating around until ... is a misconception.

 

[evnow]

Between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., excess energy may be wasted on the grid network because it has nowhere to go other than to continue traveling around the grid transmission line infrastructure, gradually becoming dissipated in the form of heat.

http://www.rltec.com/gridbalancing

The electricity grid is a dynamic entity in a constant state of flux as the levels of supply from generators and demand from all consumers constantly change. Electricity cannot yet be stored economically: excess supply one day cannot be used to meet a surge in demand on another day. So the grid’s operators must ensure that the amount of available electricity matches the amount consumed at any time, and vice versa. The grid must be able to respond to predictable movements in demand patterns as well as random, second-by-second changes. The grid’s operators must also have plans in place to manage a major interruption to supply, such as a power station failing. To keep the grid balanced, traditional generators have a throttle control that enables them to vary their output instantaneously – this is known as response. The grid also maintains a buffer of spare capacity from ‘balancing stations’ which can be called on at extremely short notice. If a power station goes down, or there is a problem in transmission, these ‘spare’ stations swing into action. The problem the grid operators have is that this insurance policy is expensive. It adds to the cost of power supply and, because it must be kept running at a low level at all times, it produces CO2 emissions even when power is not being used.

 

[garygid]

Much better description of the grid.

Small voltage variations usually take care of loads turning ON or OFF.

For example:
A community using 100,000 kW (100 MW) might have a sudden 1 MW (big)bload come on-line suddenly. Until the generators can be "cranked up" by 1% (perhaps some minutes), there is a temporary drop in the area's voltage, perhaps a volt, so that all the users are getting 1% less power (1 MW less), which will "flow" to the big new load.

Likewise, when the big load turning OFF will create a usually-small over-voltage condition until the generators can be "cut back".

 

[garygid]

Having 100,000 EVs suddenly start to draw 10 kW at 12:01 AM would be a 1,000 MW "sudden" load.

Some method of staggering these charging loads will eventually be desireable.

edit: fixed my math

 

[Randy]

I agree with your concept, Gary, but the numbers you mentioned don't quite add up. Here's what I come up with...

100,000 EVs at 10 KW or 10,000 watts (which sounds high) = 1,000,000,000 watts = 1,000 MW

The entire nighttime load in San Diego is 2,000 MW give or take. But I do get your point. The utility infrastructure definitely needs some long-term planning to accomodate the wave of EVs on the horizon...

 

[garygid]

I goofed, thanks.
Edit & fixed ...
Wow, that would be a BIG load spike!

More realistic near-term:
1000 EVs at 3.3 kW, "only" a 3.3 MW load.
The percentage of 2000 MW is very little ... for now.

 

[LEAFer]

If they are all LEAFs ... that would be 3.3kW ... so about 1/3 of your numbers.
But the longer-term average for the first 100,000 EVs is probably around 5kW.
So ... with deference to "Back to the Future" ... about 1/2 JigaWatt load. :lol:



Edit: typo.

 

[WWBD]

Good stuff, guys. This really is going to present an engineering challenge for the power companies, but it will be worth it!

 

[Jimmydreams]

Good stuff, guys. This really is going to present an engineering challenge for the power companies, but it will be worth it!

I've heard that electrically, an EV that is heavily used appears to the electric company as a new small house. So yes, the electric companies have some work to do....but these cars will slowly come on-line, so they can work as the demand builds. But if the electric companies don't look ahead, they'll get caught with their pants down and then blame everyone BUT themselves!!

 

[LEAFfan]

Good stuff, guys. This really is going to present an engineering challenge for the power companies, but it will be worth it!

I've heard that electrically, an EV that is heavily used appears to the electric company as a new small house. So yes, the electric companies have some work to do....but these cars will slowly come on-line, so they can work as the demand builds. But if the electric companies don't look ahead, they'll get caught with their pants down and then blame everyone BUT themselves!!

But those of us that will be charging with our pvs during the off-peak day hours (as I plan to do) should help some, and more and more people will be getting pvs before the rebates and tax credits run out or change.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Good stuff, guys. This really is going to present an engineering challenge for the power companies, but it will be worth it!

I've heard that electrically, an EV that is heavily used appears to the electric company as a new small house. So yes, the electric companies have some work to do....but these cars will slowly come on-line, so they can work as the demand builds. But if the electric companies don't look ahead, they'll get caught with their pants down and then blame everyone BUT themselves!!

But those of us that will be charging with our pvs during the off-peak day hours (as I plan to do) should help some, and more and more people will be getting pvs before the rebates and tax credits run out or change.

I've read that something like 73% of todays commuting traffic could switch to electric and our national grid could take it precisely because most charging would be done during off-peak times.

I'll bet those graveyard shifts at the electric plants will start to resemble day shifts before too much longer!!

 

[evnow]

I've read that something like 73% of todays commuting traffic could switch to electric and our national grid could take it precisely because most charging would be done during off-peak times.

I'll bet those graveyard shifts at the electric plants will start to resemble day shifts before too much longer!!

As this graph shows ....

BTW, since most of wind power generated is at night, may be you mostly get to use wind power instead of coal/nuke baseload at night ...

 

[smkettner]

By better utilizing the system at off peak the entire system should be more efficient.

 

[evnow]

By better utilizing the system at off peak the entire system should be more efficient.

Yes. Infact, in terms of economics, since the utilization goes up - the rates for everyone falls !

 

[Jimmydreams]

By better utilizing the system at off peak the entire system should be more efficient.

Yes. Infact, in terms of economics, since the utilization goes up - the rates for everyone falls !

I wish!!

What will PROBABLY happen is the electric companies will come out with a "there really are no peak/off peak times anymore, so ALL rates are now peak rates."

Grumble grumble. :evil:

 

[LEAFfan]

By better utilizing the system at off peak the entire system should be more efficient.

Yes. Infact, in terms of economics, since the utilization goes up - the rates for everyone falls !

I wish!!

What will PROBABLY happen is the electric companies will come out with a "there really are no peak/off peak times anymore, so ALL rates are now peak rates."

Grumble grumble. :evil:

That's ok. If that should happen, it may get more people to go solar! :mrgreen:

 

[Jimmydreams]

That's ok. If that should happen, it may get more people to go solar! :mrgreen:

That's fine with me. Every time I see a huge, south facing roof with no solar panels on it I think of all the wasted energy. If it were up to me, I'd mandate solar on new construction.

 

[evnow]

I wish!!

What will PROBABLY happen is the electric companies will come out with a "there really are no peak/off peak times anymore, so ALL rates are now peak rates."

Grumble grumble. :evil:

That depends on your utility regulatory board - since they need to signoff on the rate.

To get back to what I was saying - the way tarriffs are setup is to give a pre-agreed profit for the utilities. So, as the revenue raises (without much change in expenses i.e. utilization rate increases), the rates can be lowered to give the same ROI. Ofcourse once the EVs take off (in about 100 years time :lol: ), it may be a different story ...

 

[TomT]

I received my September order email on the 3rd at 10:30am and placed my order with Joanna at Fontana immediately thereafter. Everything went exactly as it should have and the $1,000 off msrp price is locked in. I was told that I may actually get delivery of the vehicle in December... We shall see.

Tom

 

[LEAFfan]

I received my September order email on the 3rd at 10:30am and placed my order with Joanna at Fontana immediately thereafter. Everything went exactly as it should have and the $1,000 off msrp price is locked in. I was told that I may actually get delivery of the vehicle in December... We shall see.
Tom

When (date/time) did you reserve? You could get your car in Dec. before some people who ordered in Aug.