New Petition To Make Nissan Cover 100% of 2G Upgrade Costs

[JimSouCal]

I am happy not to upgrade to 3G as long as they get rid of the OK at startup.
Now I can't send anymore data to them, can they just get rid of the legal notice?

The 'OK at startup' is in the NAV software and would require a dealer loaded update. Since Nissan has not offered an update, so far, I seriously doubt they ever will. The 2013 forward models changed this to once a month instead of at every startup.

Technically, the car can (and will still try) to send data to Nissan. Without the 2G service available for the radio, it will be unsuccessful at every attempt.

Which I why I am hoping someone can lead the way to pulling out the com unit... I have no need for it, and if it wakes up attempting to communicate when the car is parked and stored, draining the 12V battery, I have even more desire to yank the thing out... That and the clarion radio that won't get rid of the Satellite preview channels I never use...

 

[baustin]

I am happy not to upgrade to 3G as long as they get rid of the OK at startup.
Now I can't send anymore data to them, can they just get rid of the legal notice?

The 'OK at startup' is in the NAV software and would require a dealer loaded update. Since Nissan has not offered an update, so far, I seriously doubt they ever will. The 2013 forward models changed this to once a month instead of at every startup.

Technically, the car can (and will still try) to send data to Nissan. Without the 2G service available for the radio, it will be unsuccessful at every attempt.

Which I why I am hoping someone can lead the way to pulling out the com unit... I have no need for it, and if it wakes up attempting to communicate when the car is parked and stored, draining the 12V battery, I have even more desire to yank the thing out... That and the clarion radio that won't get rid of the Satellite preview channels I never use...

Unfortunately, I don't think that will help any. The comm unit (2G radio) can be disconnected, but the code that attempts to contact Nissan is probably embedded in the CarWings section of the NAV unit software. It is going to attempt communication, even though there is no way to complete the task. I doubt the code was written with error-checking to confirm there is a comm unit, before making the attempt, since they always intended for one to be there.

 

[arnis]

If vehicle is under warranty then in no way end user has to pay for that.
It is called: "it doesn't work and dealer can't fix it for free" - therefore end user can just return the vehicle for 100% refund.
This is how it would be in Europe.
If the vehicle is out of warranty then legally Nissan is not obligated to fix it even if telematics module explodes or turns into a puppy.

If Nissan was informed about 2G switching off in 2017 then it is questionable that they continued with 2G modules and lawsuit
might start from there. Anything before 2G switch off notification can not be reasonably disputed.
If Nissan was notified that 2G will be switched off and told potential customers that functionality will not be available, Nissan
would most likely win in court. If Nissan knew that functionality was not possible in 2017 and told potential buyers that it "might"
not work then that is a lie.

 

[jjeff]

If Nissan was notified that 2G will be switched off and told potential customers that functionality will not be available, Nissan
would most likely win in court.

Therein lies point, in every brochure I've seen since '13 Nissan specifically states they are not responsible for 3rd party vendors, specifically 2G networks. Looking at my '14 Leaf brochure(I don't have a '13 brochure) and I quote:
"AT&T has announced that on December 31st 2016, AT&T will terminate 2G network availability." and that without an upgrade CARWINGS will not function and Nissan will not be responsible for any possible upgrades.
Again this was on a '14 Leaf brochure, probably printed in '13. Nissan knew 2G was going away and yet produced vehicles that relied on it for a few years after.....but they did warn people and as far as the letter of the law so I don't see how any lawsuit against them could prevail, buyer beware is the name of the game
Note everywhere in this brochure where they talk about CARWINGS and whatever else might rely on a 2G network they have a little #7 footnote that is explained on the back of the brochure what the #7 means. Not saying I agree with what Nissan did, but they did take proper measures to warn people IMO.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I do find it helpful to be able to remotely preheat our LEAF at times. However, I refuse to pay to upgrade to 3G. Why can't Nissan sell us an upgrade to LTE instead? Is it really that much more expensive? (I don't know.)

LTE doesn't really have the coverage. its getting there but there are still monumental holes. Our technical expertise has still not figured out how to address our girth...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Pass. But I will sign a petition forcing free GPS updates for life!

 

[arnis]

I don't care about all kinds of random papers. Only those that I signed. Otherwise I've not seen them and end of story.
Also if somebody just mentioned something, that, legally, also doesn't mean anything. It must be signed on paper/digitally.

In some instances adding "we are not responsible for xxxx" isn't going to work. At least legally in EU that is not possible.
For example, some manufacturers give 1 year warranty, some give 6 month warranty for some product they make.
Some exclude parts that they call are "wearing down". For example on-off switch on kitchen blender.
It doesn't matter. First of all, in EU there is consumer protection law that specifically says that end user can write a
complaint if something broke down within 2 year period. If manufacturer doesn't take responsibility it can be forced by law/court.
And also there are things that can not be considered as wearing parts, like switches on machines, valves, cords.
Those parts do exist but the also must be replaceable. So battery integrated in a shaver, if it fails, product is defective.
If it can be changed, then user must change it. I think there was a huge conflict with a huge manufacturer (not from EU). I think
it was a smartphone. They denied warranty claims because "they gave 1 year warranty only". But if you sell your product on
the territory of EU it doesn't matter what you say.

Going back to the topic.
Car manufacturer can not guarantee signal. And this is how I understood that claim when it was mentioned in some brochure.
But they must guarantee that every option end user payed for will work until warranty period ends. Leaf has longer overall
warranty than mandatory EU requirement. 3 years or 100 000km whichever comes first. I know that Nissan mentioned that
they are not responsible but technically they are. Maybe, only maybe, if every customer specifically signed that they know that
before purchasing the vehicle, maybe Nissan can wash their hands clean.

Only exception could be that Nissan was not in position to fix the problem. They say they could not but every engineer would
tell otherwise. And solution is: use 3G capable modem. If 3G modem was not available as soon as 2G drop was announced then
that is acceptable. But it is not the case. 3G modems were available. And Nissan had to switch as they knew car will break down
at 2017. Whatever Nissan says they still have to fix the car if it is under warranty (things excluded are in warranty leaflet) and are signed.
So imagine somebody buys a new Leaf this month. In few weeks telematics will fail. You really think customer has to pay? No.
But warranty on 1 day old product and 1 day before the end of the warranty is exactly the same (excluding weardown parts, like
paint scratches, brushes, suspension parts, battery).

"Nissan specifically states they are not responsible for 3rd party vendors," - many parts Nissan Leaf is made of are made by other manufacturers.
Starting from suspension parts down to windshield wipers. I even think the 2G modem is not made by Nissan.
Are those things not included? haha

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I don't care about all kinds of random papers. Only those that I signed. Otherwise I've not seen them and end of story.
Also if somebody just mentioned something, that, legally, also doesn't mean anything. It must be signed on paper/digitally.

In some instances adding "we are not responsible for xxxx" isn't going to work. At least legally in EU that is not possible.
For example, some manufacturers give 1 year warranty, some give 6 month warranty for some product they make.
Some exclude parts that they call are "wearing down". For example on-off switch on kitchen blender.
It doesn't matter. First of all, in EU there is consumer protection law that specifically says that end user can write a
complaint if something broke down within 2 year period. If manufacturer doesn't take responsibility it can be forced by law/court.
And also there are things that can not be considered as wearing parts, like switches on machines, valves, cords.
Those parts do exist but the also must be replaceable. So battery integrated in a shaver, if it fails, product is defective.
If it can be changed, then user must change it. I think there was a huge conflict with a huge manufacturer (not from EU). I think
it was a smartphone. They denied warranty claims because "they gave 1 year warranty only". But if you sell your product on
the territory of EU it doesn't matter what you say.

Going back to the topic.
Car manufacturer can not guarantee signal. And this is how I understood that claim when it was mentioned in some brochure.
But they must guarantee that every option end user payed for will work until warranty period ends. Leaf has longer overall
warranty than mandatory EU requirement. 3 years or 100 000km whichever comes first. I know that Nissan mentioned that
they are not responsible but technically they are. Maybe, only maybe, if every customer specifically signed that they know that
before purchasing the vehicle, maybe Nissan can wash their hands clean.

Only exception could be that Nissan was not in position to fix the problem. They say they could not but every engineer would
tell otherwise. And solution is: use 3G capable modem. If 3G modem was not available as soon as 2G drop was announced then
that is acceptable. But it is not the case. 3G modems were available. And Nissan had to switch as they knew car will break down
at 2017. Whatever Nissan says they still have to fix the car if it is under warranty (things excluded are in warranty leaflet) and are signed.
So imagine somebody buys a new Leaf this month. In few weeks telematics will fail. You really think customer has to pay? No.
But warranty on 1 day old product and 1 day before the end of the warranty is exactly the same (excluding weardown parts, like
paint scratches, brushes, suspension parts, battery).

"Nissan specifically states they are not responsible for 3rd party vendors," - many parts Nissan Leaf is made of are made by other manufacturers.
Starting from suspension parts down to windshield wipers. I even think the 2G modem is not made by Nissan.
Are those things not included? haha

its not a brochure; its a disclaimer you sign accepting the "facts of life" upon delivery of the car... whether you read what you sign is up to you. Your laws might vary so I speak from the American Side only...

 

[reeler]

I think it should be covered under the factory or extended warranty. If out of warranty, the co-pay is a good idea.

Carwings was never intended to be free for life. If they charge a fee after the upgrade that will really suck. If $199 gets the feature for life, that is fair.

 

[SageBrush]

"Nissan specifically states they are not responsible for 3rd party vendors," - many parts Nissan Leaf is made of are made by other manufacturers.
Starting from suspension parts down to windshield wipers. I even think the 2G modem is not made by Nissan.
Are those things not included?

The 2G signal is the 3rd party vendor. In similar fashion, Nissan is not responsible for road upkeep even though they well may have stated that the car is road worthy at time of manufacture.

 

[arnis]

We get back to "dear customers, our vehicles will fail within warranty period due to other company not
supplying us signal that is outdated. As other companies move ahead and we don't your Leaf will
fail within warranty period. We knew that it will fail and did nothing to avoid that.
If you want it to be fixed you pay for it. Thank you" situation.

Also due to the fact that Mitsuba is not offering windshield wiper motors you have to pray that it will not fail on your vehicle.
They told us that a year ago. And we warned you that if 3rd party fails to supply us cookies for free we will not be responsible.

You see, that isn't an excuse. I buy a product. It is made out of thousands of different parts. If supplier of any
part or service fails the one who took your money is legally liable for supporting you until warranty runs out.

Technically in EU this is the dealership you bought the car. So even if Nissan declares bankruptcy I have to get repair from dealership.
if they can't fix it they have to take back the vehicle and return the money.
Something like VW does with vehicles they are unable to fix cheaply enough.

 

[baustin]

We get back to "dear customers, our vehicles will fail within warranty period due to other company not
supplying us signal that is outdated. As other companies move ahead and we don't your Leaf will
fail within warranty period. We knew that it will fail and did nothing to avoid that.
If you want it to be fixed you pay for it. Thank you" situation.

Also due to the fact that Mitsuba is not offering windshield wiper motors you have to pray that it will not fail on your vehicle.
They told us that a year ago. And we warned you that if 3rd party fails to supply us cookies for free we will not be responsible.

You see, that isn't an excuse. I buy a product. It is made out of thousands of different parts. If supplier of any
part or service fails the one who took your money is legally liable for supporting you until warranty runs out.

Technically in EU this is the dealership you bought the car. So even if Nissan declares bankruptcy I have to get repair from dealership.
if they can't fix it they have to take back the vehicle and return the money.
Something like VW does with vehicles they are unable to fix cheaply enough.

All your claims about warranty and failure have no bearing on the issue. The radio supplied with the Leaf still functions just as it should. The problem is the radio network it connects to is going away. That is completely out of Nissan's control.

AT&T started notification that 2G was going away in August of 2012. Nissan added the disclaimer to their material to legally protect themselves. I think the free replacement should also extend to the 2014 model, but Nissan chose 2015 forward. Nissan has already absorbed a large amount of the cost by supplying the service at no cost to the user. I think a $199 equipment upgrade fee to maintain the service is reasonable. Think about it, how much and how often do you spend to keep your mobile phone upgraded? One $199 fee over the life-span of the vehicle is pretty cheap.

 

[skhmc]

All your claims about warranty and failure have no bearing on the issue. The radio supplied with the Leaf still functions just as it should.

I would dispute "functions just as it should". As communications device, it does not function as it should. Communications devices require two ends to work (and, yes, I understand the cause of the device no longer working -- but that [should be] between Nissan and AT&T, and I needn't be involved). If the engineers who designed this part never got it to talk to another device, would it be functioning as it should? No.

You're looking at the part. I'm looking at what the part is supposed to do. And it no longer does what it is supposed to do.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Are you going to include 2G cell phones in your eventual lawsuit? I have two of those. (Also a Super BetaMax, but that still works fine.)

 

[arnis]

If phone is under warranty then yes. Manufacturer must fix 2G only capable phone if 2G is dropped.

I believe in real court discussion Nissan can not wash their hands clean with that "user notification".
They knew in 2012 that 2G will be killed. They should have taken appropriate measures.
Yes they might have some modems already built but ordering more from supplier is
not acceptable. And I don't blame them that they 2011/2012/2013 Leafs are not fixed for free.
But vehicles under warranty? One can not exclude random stuff from warranty even if you want.

My vote goes to 3 year warranty free fix. So all Leafs bought in 2016, 2015, 2014 should have free fix.

Cars and phones are different devices. Cars are expected to last longer. Even in environmental point of view.
If Nissan forces users to scrap 2013 Leafs then that is a huge red flag on emissions.
Planned obsolescence is a thing but doing it so ignorantly can not be tolerated.

 

[baustin]

All your claims about warranty and failure have no bearing on the issue. The radio supplied with the Leaf still functions just as it should.

I would dispute "functions just as it should". As communications device, it does not function as it should. Communications devices require two ends to work (and, yes, I understand the cause of the device no longer working -- but that [should be] between Nissan and AT&T, and I needn't be involved). If the engineers who designed this part never got it to talk to another device, would it be functioning as it should? No.

You're looking at the part. I'm looking at what the part is supposed to do. And it no longer does what it is supposed to do.

You could sue on other grounds, and possibly win, but trying to claim the radio does not work because the network it connects to no longer exists is a losing proposition. Technically, the radio still functions. It can still transmit, it can still receive, it has not failed. The data service just no longer works, because the network has disappeared. Nissan covered themselves, legally, with the warnings and the waivers. If you could prove that no warning was received from Nissan, when the car was purchased new, then you would have a case. But what would you win? The courts won't force AT&T to keep 2G alive, and they won't force Nissan to build a 2G network where an alternative solution has already been put in place. Is it worth everything you would have to go through to save $199 for the radio upgrade? If you could prove no warning, you could probably get the fee waived without a lawyer, but I'm sure Nissan's legal team was pretty thorough on that one. The cost of the fee waiver would get passed on to the selling dealer for failing to collect the proper paperwork at the time of the sale.

 

[baustin]

If phone is under warranty then yes. Manufacturer must fix 2G only capable phone if 2G is dropped.

I believe in real court discussion Nissan can not wash their hands clean with that "user notification".
They knew in 2012 that 2G will be killed. They should have taken appropriate measures.
Yes they might have some modems already built but ordering more from supplier is
not acceptable. And I don't blame them that they 2011/2012/2013 Leafs are not fixed for free.
But vehicles under warranty? One can not exclude random stuff from warranty even if you want.

My vote goes to 3 year warranty free fix. So all Leafs bought in 2016, 2015, 2014 should have free fix.

Cars and phones are different devices. Cars are expected to last longer. Even in environmental point of view.
If Nissan forces users to scrap 2013 Leafs then that is a huge red flag on emissions.
Planned obsolescence is a thing but doing it so ignorantly can not be tolerated.

If a 2G phone was still under warranty, the fix would be to replace it with a 3G phone. AT&T stopped selling 2G phones a long time ago, probably around the time they decided to turn off the 2G service. The announcement that AT&T would be turning off the 2G service was made in August of 2012.

Nissan will be able to wash their hands of the issue. Their legal team ensured that with a signed waiver with every 2013 and newer Leaf sold. The service that uses the 2G radio is an add-on service, that was announced as a subscription service, and is not an integral part of the cars basic function and is not required for the car to be driven normally. It can be excluded from warranty service.

I also believe that all 2014 model year cars should be fixed for free, along with the 2015 model year cars that are being fixed for free, but we don't get a vote.

 

[baustin]

....

Cars and phones are different devices. Cars are expected to last longer. Even in environmental point of view.
If Nissan forces users to scrap 2013 Leafs then that is a huge red flag on emissions.
Planned obsolescence is a thing but doing it so ignorantly can not be tolerated.

I'm sorry, but this statement makes you appear ignorant. Nissan is not going to make anyone scrap a 2013 Leaf. The 2G radio is not an integral part of the vehicles function, and is not required for it to operate or be driven. The loss of the 2G radio connection is an inconvenience for the driver, but does not prevent the car from being driven. Nissan has offered a solution. It is up to the owner of each vehicle to determine if the functionality of the CarWings/EVConnect Service is worth the $199 hardware upgrade fee required to keep it operational.

 

[reeler]

T-Mobile hasn't turned off their 2G network. How about they just send out a new SIM card or let us use our own.

 

[Anonymous]

Is just simple!!!!!!never buy a nissan ever again!!!! i'm no happy with all this **** nissan is doing and i will never buy a nissan again, as soon as i can get a tesla i will get rid off my nissan, probably junk it because isnt gonna be worth nothing!!!!

THAT'S WHAT CAPITALISM IS ABOUT BAD COMPANIES GET LESS COSTUMERS!!!!