Newbie - 2018 Nissan Leaf lessee

[rogersleaf]

Thanks, Goldbrick. You've prepared me well to ask an electrician. FWIW, yes to electric water heater and electric dryer (not on the circuit used for the EVSE). Forced air gas furnace and gas range. No other heavy loads that I can think of. Oh, a space heater because of the ill-conceived central "heating." That's a bit of a load. Also not on the EVSE circuit.

I'm starting to think (again) that this house has all it can handle without expensive work, but I'll find out what it will cost to have someone come out and tell me that.

Want to add that my own home is a townhouse condominium with 100 amp service, 240v for clothes dryer and central A/C, and natural gas for furnace, hot water, and stove. I added a 240v. 40 amp (#8 wire) circuit to the garage for a Clipper Creek HCS-40 to get the full 27.5 amps/6.6KW the leaf would draw. Adding that circuit maxed-out the electrical panel and doubt it would be possible or advisable if had either an electric stove or electric hot water heat in the mix. I am able to run the A/C, clothes dryer and charge the car simultaneously without tripping the 100 amp main breaker. My own daily usage of a 24 KWh leaf was relatively heavy (100% to LBW/VLBW for a 75-mile daily commute), which was @ 20 KWh/day usage, which roughly double the electrical load on the home's electrical service.

So as Leftiebiker recommended, you might need to consider a 240v-L2 evse that is slightly constrained in peak electrical draw. The key difference while charging the leaf is getting roughly 2/3 the peak amperage during the 0%-80% of battery capacity. After @ 80% full, the car's control system will ramp-down the amperage draw to less than the constrained evse is capable of delivering so there will be no difference in charging time for topping off the battery.

 

[NoReleaf]

So as Leftiebiker recommended, you might need to consider a 240v-L2 EVSE

All good info, thank you. Something I have to consider, though, is how long I really want to be here (not any longer than I have to be) and how long it would take for the investment in upgrades to pay for itself (forever). But this is all still very relevant to "the next place," whatever that might be. So thanks to everyone.

I was looking at rentals recently (garage a must) and found a townhouse 2 BR with a garage. Couldn't quite afford it (thanks, Leaf - oh the irony), but I was assuming I was home free on having found the Leaf the home it needs as much as I do. (Just give me that big old outlet!) But you have reminded me that there are still questions to ask about appliances, power draw, and circuits, before I jump.

 

[NoReleaf]

The lowest I see Clipper Creek goes for a 240 volt EVSE is the LCS-15 (https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-12-to-15) which is 12 amps at 208/240 volts and requires a 15 amp circuit.

Thanks. You folks sure knows your electricities.

 

[NoReleaf]

I've used the EVgo DCFCs at the Lincoln Oasis. PlugShare also shows a DCFC at Bob Rohrman Nissan in Burns Harbor, although I've never used it. Using one of those, a 2018 should be able to make it to Grand Rapids from WhEaton with a single en-route charging session, no? Waze shows a distance of 200 miles and driving time of 3 hours.

Well, I'm disappointed in the EVgo DCFC. Glad it's there, but not impressed. 25% in 30 minutes doesn't do an incredible amount for me. If this is normal, I am less optimistic about any trip possibilities. A local dealer has a DCFC station that gives me 50% in 30 minutes (and doesn't kick me out after 30 minutes, either). I wish there were some of those every 100 miles. Nissan dealerships with DCFC appear to be the very uncommon exception, I am not surprised to see.

 

[cwerdna]

Well, I'm disappointed in the EVgo DCFC. Glad it's there, but not impressed. 25% in 30 minutes doesn't do an incredible amount for me. If this is normal, I am less optimistic about any trip possibilities. A local dealer has a DCFC station that gives me 50% in 30 minutes (and doesn't kick me out after 30 minutes, either).

It depends on the output of the DC FC and other factors such as your starting state of charge and battery temperature.

Have a Plugshare link to it? Have a pic of the labels showing its max output?

If you start out near empty and your battery is neither too cold nor too hot, you'll get the max output for longest.

 

[NoReleaf]

It depends on the output of the DC FC and other factors such as your starting state of charge and battery temperature.

Starting SoC was 67%, battery temp was maybe 20-25% of the complete bar. No more than halfway to halfway. (The highest I've ever seen it so far is at the midpoint after DCFC charges.)

PlugShare link (I took no photos of labels, no): https://www.plugshare.com/location/87881

This trip and charge was a trial run for what would actually happen en route to Michigan, and it is unfortunate that my first and possibly only DCFC opportunity is only 43 miles from home. I suppose that I could start with less in order to have a much lower SoC when I got there, but I do not know whether there would be incredible benefit to that. Maybe, see below.

I've charged a couple times at the "Monster" DCFC at a local dealership (one of many, not the one I leased from, perhaps unfortunately). 30 minutes took me from 39% to 84% the first time, from 26% to 76% the next time. This second time I looked at some stats on the display. 107 amps, 397 volts. I think. Would starting at 67% really slow things down by half? Really? Incidentally, it is not as though the Lincoln Oasis DCFC started out gangbusters and then slowed down. It plodded the whole time.

My next question would be, since I've yet to test it: How creepy-crawly do things get when the SoC gets into the 90s?

 

[rogersleaf]

So as Leftiebiker recommended, you might need to consider a 240v-L2 EVSE

All good info, thank you. Something I have to consider, though, is how long I really want to be here (not any longer than I have to be) and how long it would take for the investment in upgrades to pay for itself (forever). But this is all still very relevant to "the next place," whatever that might be. So thanks to everyone.

I was looking at rentals recently (garage a must) and found a townhouse 2 BR with a garage. Couldn't quite afford it (thanks, Leaf - oh the irony), but I was assuming I was home free on having found the Leaf the home it needs as much as I do. (Just give me that big old outlet!) But you have reminded me that there are still questions to ask about appliances, power draw, and circuits, before I jump.

Your situation first caught my attention because I had lived in suburban Chicago, familiar with the area and the cost of housing, along with the driving conditions. To me, owning a LEAF in that area would be difficult unless affluent enough to afford a private home where one can control a dedicated charging source, or if dependent on public sources the car has a large enough battery capacity to run several days without recharging. Otherwise a nuisance factor sets in that can taint your ownership experience. My home there was a condo with a garage, but the garage was in a detached bank of garages in the common parking lots. The electrical power in the garages was provided by the condo association and on common shared circuits (120v. only, for lights and door openers). I'm certain that charging a car would definitely draw a nasty-gram from the condo board if they ever found out. It would make me think twice about the practicality.

 

[cwerdna]

It depends on the output of the DC FC and other factors such as your starting state of charge and battery temperature.

Starting SoC was 67%, battery temp was maybe 20-25% of the complete bar. No more than halfway to halfway. (The highest I've ever seen it so far is at the midpoint after DCFC charges.)

PlugShare link (I took no photos of labels, no): https://www.plugshare.com/location/87881
...
This second time I looked at some stats on the display. 107 amps, 397 volts. I think.
...
My next question would be, since I've yet to test it: How creepy-crawly do things get when the SoC gets into the 90s?

If the unit is still an Efacec QC50 (seems like the markings have been vandalized/covered up), I found https://www.chargepoint.com/files/Efecec_QC_50_DC_fast_charger_datasheet.pdf indicating 50 kW nominal output.

For the other DC FC, 107 amps * 397 volts = 42,479 watts = 42.479 kW.

As for your last question, someone else will have to answer since I don't have any Leaf w/CHAdeMO inlet any more. The 30 kWh Leafs could sustain high power input for a long time and pretty high even at 90% SoC (much better than the 24 kWh Leafs). Sounds like the 40 kWh Leafs aren't so good in that dept. esp. if you do multiple DC FCs in a day.

As for battery temp, use Leaf Spy to see the actual sensor temps. What you've listed there unfortunately means nothing to me. ('11 and '17 Leafs had huge overlapping ranges for its temp "gauge". Click Battery Temperature Gauge at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/#Battery_Temperature_Gauge to see what I'm talking about.)

 

[GlennD]

Thanks, Glenn. I am appreciative of both your and LeftieBiker's advice. Upon further investigation, I don't think I have a circuit problem. The circuit has a 20 amp fuse and there is nothing especially heavy duty on it, after all. Is the fact that the charging outlets themselves are of the GFCI variety at all relevant here, too? (Might as well ask while at it...) I would worry if the washer/dryer, water heater, or furnace were on the same circuit I charge on, but this is not the case. I just wasn't sure. I can tell you that the fuse box has a problem, though. Pretty much everything penciled in (and more than once) is wrong. I had to go around turning things on and flipping the breakers to figure things out.

One thing I would like to ask, though, is how can you tell if a house without any obvious 220V outlets... well, what I really mean to ask is whether some houses would actually require running different wire from the electric pole to the house just to have 220-240V (gak - which is it already??) power. A dumb question to smart people, I'm sure - plenty more where that came from. This house does have central AC, and I suppose I could crawl and squint to see what the water heater is plugged into, and the junk-filled garage (not my junk!) is also full of mysterious junction boxes and conduits, so I am starting to think that an L2 charger here is not out of the question. The home owner doesn't know, trust me. So I seek your wise counsel in advance of calling an electrician over just to have him/her tell me it isn't happening.

A twenty amp circuit is fine and leaves a lot of room for either loads. On a straight dedicated circuit on OpenEVSE you can switch to 16A (80% of 20A). Technically the contacts of the outlet are rated at 15A but only the extra slot disginues the 20A outlet. As long as it is not back stabbed you are good.

 

[SageBrush]

240v = two 120v line feeds
If you have room in your panel for two adjacent 120v breakers, you can upgrade the socket.
Honestly though, if the car is only used locally and you have a plan 'B' if the LEAF is not ready for an uncommon occurrence then staying with L1 EVSE is reasonable. I have L2 and love it but my cars are all EV.

If you are only going to keep the car through the lease then battery degradation is not going to affect your car use and you can plug in whenever you want. If you care about battery degradation for other reasons then follow Lefty's advice: when weather is warm charge up the battery every couple of days and note that charging to 100% is much less a concern than leaving a hot battery at 100% for hours on end. You are already avoiding the worse situation so you are OK even continuing your current routine.

Enjoy your LEAF !
And start planning for your next EV in 3 years: ICE cars suck.

 

[NoReleaf]

Click Battery Temperature Gauge at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki ... ture_Gauge

Thanks for the link (etc.). This 2018 Leaf does not have any discrete bars in the battery temperature gauge, unless there is a second place I haven't noticed that might be displaying bars. So I cannot associate what I see with any specific temperature.

I enjoy reading the various LeafSpy discussions here, but unless it is freeware, and since it would require the purchase of actual hardware regardless of that, it does not seem like a worthwhile investment at this very early stage of owning (leasing) a brand new Leaf. I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Just seems a little complicated, gathering data no one appears fully able to interpret. I am at 1,200 miles. What am I going to learn about the battery that I need to know? And what is up with Nissan that they need to keep secret from the owner vital details about the battery? At first I was dazzled by all the information displays (coming from the pre- whatever you call this era, as I do). Now a lot of it just seems to be eye candy, window dressing.

 

[GlennD]

There is a free version but all require hardware. The Blu-tooth module is less than $10. The Wi-fi unit is more. You seem to be a person that never pays for shareware. If it is reasonable then why not!

I consider the pro versions reasonably priced. I just wish it was available for my B. I used a stand alone unit from Lincomatic when I had my Leaf. I really like a unit that is always available. Unfortunately Leaf spy is dominate and all other versions are no longer developed.

 

[NoReleaf]

To me, owning a LEAF in that area would be difficult

Yes, owning or leasing a Leaf in this area has its challenges. but it's mostly to do with vehicle cost and cost of living (as observed) rather than pure practicality. I do not see many Leafs at all among the hordes of other Nissans. I see more Volts and Teslas. I cannot accurately gauge how popular EVs are in the Chicago suburbs based on what I see on the road, though. I would not recognize many of them.

As for the Leaf, which is a kind of obvious choice for the person just getting into EVs and without a ton of money to spend - some history, some name recognition, some reputation for practicality as opposed to the perceived risk and extravagance of a Tesla - it depends on your situation and how smart you are. (I'm not that smart.) To live alone and own a car in this area, unless you are either very frugal or just brilliant with money (I am neither), you need an annual income of at least $65K. I don't think I got the best possible deal on my Leaf (knowing of this forum while I was doing research would have helped), but I came away with a manageable car payment and by far the best car I've ever had. At the time I was not considering "need a new car" and "need a new place" as a package deal. That came later when I realized that "new car" almost mandated "new place." Though a new place had already been on my mind for quite some time, the need for a new car came up rather suddenly and was non-optional. I could have gone much cheaper thinking "stopgap" and certainly with no EV at all, but that is not where my head was. So the good life is going to take some extra income, a second job.

However, my preference to live alone is not the norm. For most people in this area in the market for a car, for practical reasons, I think the Leaf, including used and older ones, would make a great choice. If I wanted to move into the 2 BR townhouse with someone, affording both that and the Leaf would be the same piece of cake it is with my current rental situation. I speculate that potential buyers, those interested in EVs at all, are falling into two camps. People who would find the Leaf both affordable and practical are still afraid of EVs. They are still too unfamiliar. Meanwhile, the people who could easily afford the Leaf are more interested in the higher-end options such as the Tesla (as would I be in their situation.)

Public L2 charging stations are fairly abundant around here, though distribution through suburbia is very uneven. The inability to charge at home would not necessarily be a deal-breaker. But I wouldn't recommend it. If I would have known a few years ago that charging with a standard outlet was possible, I might have purchased/leased already then. I remember looking into the Smart car, but the all-electric was not available in this area at that time.

 

[NoReleaf]

You seem to be a person that never pays for shareware.

Oh, I have no objection to paying for software in general, and I've bought tons of shareware in my time. I'm thinking that LeafSpy is both a bit over my head and of minimal practical use at this time. Could change.

 

[NoReleaf]

240v = two 120v line feeds
If you have room in your panel for two adjacent 120v breakers, you can upgrade the socket.
Honestly though, if the car is only used locally and you have a plan 'B' if the LEAF is not ready for an uncommon occurrence then staying with L1 EVSE is reasonable. I have L2 and love it but my cars are all EV.

If you are only going to keep the car through the lease then battery degradation is not going to affect your car use and you can plug in whenever you want. If you care about battery degradation for other reasons then follow Lefty's advice: when weather is warm charge up the battery every couple of days and note that charging to 100% is much less a concern than leaving a hot battery at 100% for hours on end. You are already avoiding the worse situation so you are OK even continuing your current routine.

Enjoy your LEAF !
And start planning for your next EV in 3 years: ICE cars suck.

Upgrade the socket, hmmm. That sounds like a very good suggestion. Less complicated and expensive (this certainly would not be DIY) than the other electrical work previously mentioned, maybe?

The charging strategy now is: Less than 60%, charge overnight (7 hours typically good for at least 20%). Otherwise don't. Charge to 100% either as needed or when I feel like it, provided the car will be driven the following day. I may occasionally take advantage of NCTC at public chargers as I have been doing. Sometimes it is more or less necessary, but not often. Close to home, I can get a 25% or more charge free for a 40-minute total walk. Not a great benefit - maybe $1.50 - but an excuse to walk isn't always a bad thing.

I want to extend the Leaf a bit beyond local once in a while, but it remains to be seen whether that is a pipe dream.

As far as planning goes, so much is probably going to change in the next three years. I will not go back to ICE unless forced. What is most on my mind for the end-of-lease thing is some kind of recovery from what was probably a bad deal. I think I put way too much money down. I went in thinking purchase, the dealer was pushing lease, it went back and forth, and when I saw what I figured was the best monthly payment I was going to get (and an offer identical to the Volt I was looking at), I left that down payment on the table. I think that was a mistake. I'm hoping to be Mr. EV Smart Guy in 33 months and be able to play hardball then.

Thanks, I am enjoying the Leaf and hope for this to continue. Over the three year lease I expect the total, all-inclusive cost per mile to end up being up to 50% more than almost 19 years of used Saturn SL2s (that much more was a recent surprise to me), but I am also getting an enhanced driving experience in what is to me (and I am not kidding) a luxury car.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Upgrade the socket, hmmm. That sounds like a very good suggestion. Less complicated and expensive (this certainly would not be DIY) than the other electrical work previously mentioned, maybe?

Unless the wiring for that 20 amp outlet is heavier than required, you are still left with either using a lower power 240 volt EVSE or installing a new circuit. It wouldn't hard or two expensive to just replace that cable run with a new, heavier cable and a 240 volt breaker if it's a simple circuit. You could also use the existing wire (IF in good shape) and convert it to 20 amps but 240 volts and no Neutral, with a new 240 volt outlet. That would require removal of any other 120 volt outlets on that circuit. There is no way to just plug a 240 volt EVSE into that 20 amp 120 volt outlet.

 

[NoReleaf]

^^^^

Couple quick questions (for everyone, really):

Is 240V home charging actually more cost-efficient than trickle charging or "merely" faster (assume best possible scenario for both)?
With my present maybe 20A circuit, the EVSE that came with the Leaf, and the 110V outlet, how much less than 1.4 kWh per hour is going into the battery? I bet there's an equation for this, but my guess based on some other observations is that it is a LOT less than 1.4, like maybe 58% of that.

 

[cwerdna]

Is 240V home charging actually more cost-efficient than trickle charging or "merely" faster (assume best possible scenario for both)?
With my present maybe 20A circuit, the EVSE that came with the Leaf, and the 110V outlet, how much less than 1.4 kWh per hour is going into the battery? I bet there's an equation for this, but my guess based on some other observations is that it is a LOT less than 1.4, like maybe 58% of that.

Yes. Charging at higher voltages (well, higher total wattage) is more efficient.

Although the '18 or '19 Leaf wasn't looked at by this lab (AFAIK), https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/SteadyStateLoadCharacterization2012Leaf.pdf and https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/SteadyStateLoadCharacterization2015Leaf.pdf had some stats for earlier Leafs.

On my '13 Leaf SV, if I charge using its stock L1 120 volt 12 amp EVSE, IIRC the numbers that Leaf Spy shows for these tend to be about 1.0 or 1.1 kW.

The first title line displays two power numbers in kW. The first number is the power in kW going into the battery pack and the second number is the power the charger is reporting. Normally these numbers are the same or almost the same.

So, probably the difference between 1.44 kW and 1.0 or 1.1 is the loss.

 

[NoReleaf]

So, probably the difference between 1.44 kW and 1.0 or 1.1 is the loss.

Thanks, much explained to me there.

Since I do not have a charger that actually reports to me, that 1.4 (1.44) was just the Leaf's nominal expected value for trickle charge as displayed. I've been curious about fuel cost and charging cost and trying to calculate them from the beginning, but the two were on separate tracks in my mind, and then I noticed the discrepancy when I expected them to reconcile.

 

[SageBrush]

Ballpark ...
L2 has 10 - 12% losses
L1 has ~ 17% losses

So figure you can go about 10% further from the same metered amount if using L2
If 3 years is 30,000 miles, and
30,000 miles is 7,500 kWh on L2,
Then 30,000 miles is 8250 kWh on L1