Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

[LeftieBiker]

Run flat tires are a no-go for just about any EV. Far too much rolling resistance.

That's a shame. Then Nissan has to get on the ball and offer either a spare or at least tires with high damage resistance as well as LRR.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Run flat tires are a no-go for just about any EV. Far too much rolling resistance.

That's a shame. Then Nissan has to get on the ball and offer either a spare or at least tires with high damage resistance as well as LRR.

the last 3 cars I have had either did not have a spare or had LRR tires (Priuses mostly) and the spare was never used. TPMS saved my A** several times because I did have DOZENS of tire issues.

I dont know if its the LRR stiffness or what but never had as many tire issues in the past 10 years as I have had since I started driving cars with the LRR tires. My Corolla went thru 3 sets of tires without a flat or a leak!

 

[KJD]

Please take the spare tire discussion to a thread on that subject

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12803" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[KJD]

I would pay $7,500 for the EXTRA 24 kWh or 48 kWh total not the 36.
No way would I pay Nissan more per kWh for a questionable battery vs Tesla that seems more reliable.

Yeah, the way I figure it is that Tesla charges $400 / kWh to go from the 60-85 kWh Model S. That represents about the maximum I'd pay for more capacity. $7500 should buy about 19 kWh. Not 8 kWh.
That said, I think a lot of people would pay a $36,300 for a 36 kWh LEAF S (LEAF S MSRP = $28,800 + $7,500 = $36,300). If Nissan can add 10 kWh for $4,000 I think they'd sell a ton of them.

Right now it looks like the i3 will have more range than the LEAF. It also looks like the Chevy Spark will have more range than the LEAF.

The 36 kWh battery pack would put the LEAF out in front of these competitors in terms of range and thats where Nissan should be headed.

 

[user 10599]

I test drove the 2014 spark b4 I bought my leaf. That is a much smaller car and in my opinion doesn't drive nearly as we'll - feels cheap and not solid. So far, majority of Evs have been purchased by fairly affluent drivers who are used to very solid feeling cars. I think many customers interested in electric and willing to pay this price range aren't going to seriously consider the spark. The real competition for the leaf will continue to be the volt and tesla, and probably the focus, i3 and MB new B.

There really should be at least 3 levels of models available:
- entry market, where price is under $20k after fed rebate. This is where the spark and smart are.
- middle market, which has typically been the target of BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, etc. $25-$40k works here. Leaf, volt, focus, i3, B will compete with each other here.
- upper market who can drop $50k+ on what they like and has the better performance without too much worry regarding value. This is the Tesla and Karma space.

Nissan did an awesome job with the leaf thus far. But if it wants to stay competitive in the middle market, they will have to boost the range 30% or more by 2015 at roughly the same price level. Depending on their execution of the new ev Infiniti, they could secure the upper edge of the middle against the i3 and the B. Or they could attempt to nibble at the low edges of the upper market by competing directly against the next version of the Tesla.

What surprises me is that Nissan hasn't put anything into the entry market, The intro of the S version moves in that direction, but they will need a model that is distinct in each bracket as they don't want leaf SL drivers deciding the car looks cheap because Nissan has the same model in the entry market.

Of course my logic above is assuming that the ev market will soon start to behave similar to the rest of the auto market where marketing has driven cars into distinct target segments. So I may be a little early. But given the number of new competitor emerging in the next 2 years, I think it is prudent to start thinking that way.

Chevy now has the spark in the entry level and the volt in the middle. I've seen posts of a Cadillac which would target upper.

MB has smart for entry and the B for the middle.

If Nissan wants to continue as a leader in Evs they will have to start competing with more models that target different customers. And if they attempt this without expanding range when competitors out perform on range, they will fall hard.

I hope they can stay in the lead - I like to think the risk they took going first will pay off well over the long run.

 

[DaveEV]

If anyone is wondering where did the manage to add battery space: LEAF has a large amount of unused (wasted) space below the trunk compartment. A LEAF owner installed a spare tire in there. He estimates about 8" to 10" depth and since his 17" tire easily fits in there at least 20" length is available. The width is about the same as the trunk. The trunk could have been made deeper for more storage capacity OR this space could be used to extend battery capacity.

That wasted space should be utilized for two Leaf options: one with the smaller battery pack plus a spare tire and larger cargo area, and one with the larger battery - and maybe a slightly larger cargo area...plus run-flat tires.

Run flat tires are a no-go for just about any EV. Far too much rolling resistance.

Not an issue when you have twice as much battery capacity.

What would you rather have? 48 kWh battery, no spare? Or 24 kWh battery and spare? Not that it really matters, since n the USA you don't get a spare, anyway. Fill up that space with battery!

Biggest issue would be that in rear end collisions, you'd be much more likely to damage at least part of the battery pack. In rear end collisions the hatch area of the LEAF gets totally demolished. Perhaps with better packaging of the rear suspension one can squeeze in more battery between the rear wheels.

 

[adric22]

I definitely think Nissan needs to offer a higher-end model that has at least 100 miles EPA range or more. I think there are plenty of people who will be happy with the lower-end 24Kwh version, especially if they live in an area with a lot of charging infrastructure. But I'm willing to bet half or more of buyers would be willing to shell out more cash for the higher range option.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I definitely think Nissan needs to offer a higher-end model that has at least 100 miles EPA range or more. I think there are plenty of people who will be happy with the lower-end 24Kwh version, especially if they live in an area with a lot of charging infrastructure. But I'm willing to bet half or more of buyers would be willing to shell out more cash for the higher range option.

can t help but think they are working on that. When in Japan we brought up the idea of multiple pack size options but were advised the logistics of that was not as easy as it sounded in the LEAF but did somewhat hint that other types of platforms were much more "adjustable"

they also said that the LEAF form (5 passenger hatchback) was not popular in the US and the 5 passenger sedan is where its at. So guessing (hoping) that is where their focus is so maybe we might see something like an Altima EV with multiple pack options

but one thing they made very clear is that the LEAF was just the beginning of the EV options and not the end game in anyway. Expect to see many more EVs in various platforms coming out soon

 

[Stoaty]

I definitely think Nissan needs to offer a higher-end model that has at least 100 miles EPA range or more.

The range of the Leaf when it is new is perfectly adequate for me. The problem is the rapid rate of degradation of the current Leaf battery pack. I live in a pretty average climate, baby my Leaf, and still I have 15% capacity loss in 2.33 years. Far from what I expected based on Nissan's original claims. I won't be buying another EV until the batteries used in that EV have a track record suggesting they will actually last 10 years.

 

[adric22]

The range of the Leaf when it is new is perfectly adequate for me. The problem is the rapid rate of degradation of the current Leaf battery pack. I live in a pretty average climate, baby my Leaf, and still I have 15% capacity loss in 2.33 years. Far from what I expected based on Nissan's original claims. I won't be buying another EV until the batteries used in that EV have a track record suggesting they will actually last 10 years.

I hear ya! I've had mine the same amount of time and have lost at least 10 miles of range from when it was new. But I sort of expected that and my commute is short so I'm not that worried. But you can add this to the list of many reasons why my next car will be a Volt (and we'll be a 2-Volt family at that point). I wish Nissan all the best, but I think the Volt is more for me than the Leaf.

 

[DanCar]

I definitely think Nissan needs to offer a higher-end model that has at least 100 miles EPA range or more.

The range of the Leaf when it is new is perfectly adequate for me. The problem is the rapid rate of degradation of the current Leaf battery pack. I live in a pretty average climate, baby my Leaf, and still I have 15% capacity loss in 2.33 years. Far from what I expected based on Nissan's original claims. I won't be buying another EV until the batteries used in that EV have a track record suggesting they will actually last 10 years.

That is why most of us leased.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Hindsight is 20/20. The early adopters had nothing to go by other than Nissan's statements/claims. It took a 2nd summer for Phoenicians and others in hot climates to find out their claims were way off for them.

 

[DanCar]

^^^
Hindsight is 20/20.

I call research and it risk assessment. Li-ion batteries have been known to degrade quickly.

 

[KJD]

Sometimes the leading edge becomes the bleeding edge. We all knew that going.

Now that EV's have been on the road for a few years, you can view some interesting results here.

http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tesla batteries seem to be holding up better than the LEAF batteries. Now the other side of that is the LEAF did not cost me 80 grand either.

My hope is that LEAF 2.0 will have a larger AND more durable battery pack, otherwise I will be saving my money for something different.

 

[mwalsh]

I call research and it risk assessment. Li-ion batteries have been known to degrade quickly.

Yeah, sure. But degradation is supposed to level off. We've seen little evidence that the LEAF battery loss will ever level off. Or will level off before EOL.

Our risk assessment was based on Nissan assertions. To suggest that we should have been able to do better is disingenuous at a minimum. Offensive even.

 

[DanCar]

Our risk assessment was based on Nisssn assertions.

Never trust what a vendor says. Trust the words written on the warranty. Since they specifically wrote in the warranty they didn't cover battery degradation, then you can expect that to happen.

 

[mwalsh]

Our risk assessment was based on Nisssn assertions.

Never trust what a vendor says. Trust the words written on the warranty. Since they specifically said they didn't cover battery degradation, then you can expect that to happen.

That is nonsense.

 

[Stoaty]

I call research and it risk assessment. Li-ion batteries have been known to degrade quickly.

That's why I opted out of the class action settlement. I expect there may need to be a second class action lawsuit (for those who purchased). I believed the vendor as an established car company and expect that they will make things right (though may have to be pushed, of course). If I get 6 years out of my Leaf when Nissan promised an average of 10, another option would be to go to small claims court requesting 4 years worth of battery (40% of say $10,000 = $4,000). While I might not win, the publicity wouldn't be good for Nissan. :twisted:

If the capacity loss doesn't slow down I may end up qualifying for the warranty after all.

 

[DaveEV]

I call research and it risk assessment. Li-ion batteries have been known to degrade quickly.

That's why I opted out of the class action settlement. I expect there may need to be a second class action lawsuit (for those who purchased). I believed the vendor as an established car company and expect that they will make things right (though may have to be pushed, of course). If I get 6 years out of my Leaf when Nissan promised an average of 10, another option would be to go to small claims court requesting 4 years worth of battery (40% of say $10,000 = $4,000). While I might not win, the publicity wouldn't be good for Nissan. :twisted:

Yep. If Nissan is smart, they will pro-rate battery replacements. Of course, it will help if they have a secondary application for the batteries.

If the capacity loss doesn't slow down I may end up qualifying for the warranty after all.

Yeah, it looks like I'll be pretty close despite being careful with the battery. Shouldn't be hard to speed up capacity loss by charging to 100% instead of 80%, quick charging more, parking in the sun, driving more aggressively, etc. Of course, the quick charging part may have to be done regardless to maintain usefulness of the car.

 

[brucedp]

I posted a newswire about a Leaf with double the range, on the evdl.org

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Dreaming-Of-A-48kW-ECOseries-Leaf-With-Double-The-Range-tp4665934.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dreaming Of A 48kW ECOseries Leaf With Double The Range?




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