Buying a LEAF....or not? Thoughts.

Ok I have hit a bit of a quandary here and thought I would compose my facts and figures and all that "out loud" here and get a response from people I like and respect...and who also know about these "issues".

I ordered on day one and was given a Sept order date. All good. I have not had my spot open yet, but then Sept isn't over...so that is fine too.

I came over from ApteraForum...I was an early Aptera deposit holder, but A) after waiting over 2 years it was getting harder and harder...plus I worry Aptera is a pipe dream at this point...and B) I always said I would support the first car company coming out with an affordable highway electric car.

So, with a certain amount of sadness, I canceled my Aptera deposit and shifted over to Nissan.

Now Nissan is a great company...the most reliable car I ever had was a 1987 Nissan Sentra. And the LEAF seems to be a great car. So no problems there. But it isn't the car I really want. I am a daily commuter. Kids moved out. Wife has a Camry (will be getting a plug in prius when they come out in 2012). So I don't need 4 doors and room from 5. I want small and nimble...a true city EV. Like the Fiat 500EV or even the Th!nk City.

But I want to support the early EV makers to prove to them that the market is there so they keep making them and start building the infrastructure.

Also (and this is all my issues...I have nothing bad to say about Nissan), I don't live in a roll out area. So I used an apt address in Phoenix that I rent for my daughter. Kinda cheating I guess, but I was willing to flat-bed the car to Albuquerque and run the risk of any issues coming up before Albuquerque was ready to service the LEAF (down time would not be an issue as I haven't had a car in over 5 years. I commute by bike or scooter year round, and will still often not take a car to work even if I buy a LEAF).

But Nissan found out about this (they actually researched this and read my posts here and even posts over at ApteraForum) and Nissan didn't like it. Again, I have nothing bad to say about Nissan and support them totally in making the LEAF...but the couple of phone call I got from a manager in Tennessee, well they weren't my favorite phone calls of all time

Still, they said they would not stop me from buying a LEAF, but that they were very "concerned" about a car being out of a roll out area. That it could hurt sales in roll out areas etc etc...strange, but whatever.

While I've been waiting to change from deposit holder to order placer, and having long distance phone calls from Tennessee, well I have wondered if my buying a car I like, but not quite the car I truly want, just to support EV adoption, well if that is what I really should do. Especially at 30k....I'm not Jay Leno, just a middle class guy.

And now the LEAF is doing so well that Nissan has stopped taking reservations. The LEAF seems pretty secure with or without me. And Nissan has let me know that they really would prefer that cars aren't in areas ahead of roll out.

Add to that the fact that I would own the LEAF for only 2 or 3 years till the Fiat 500 EV comes out and then I would trade in the LEAF and get the Fiat...and maybe I should let another reservation holder take my place instead?

I look at it this way...I still have my LEAF reservation...I might keep it...the LEAF is going to be a great car...and a wonderful first EV. But I could get a Fiat 500 and a Brammo Enertia for about the same price as the LEAF. I can ride the electric motorcycle most days (I love riding without a cage, but getting older at 49 now and some icy mornings I really shouldn't, but still do, ride in the ice on less than 4 wheels), and have a cute little commuter car that I can trade in when the 500ev comes in 2012.

Soooooo, keep LEAF reservation and order one....or cancel LEAF and get Fiat 500 and nice little electric motorcycle. After tax rebates it will likely be a push in price...a bit under 30k for the LEAF, a bit under 30k for Fiat 500 and Motorcycle. So price isn't an issue.

And availability isn't much different either...I am now number 137 of 500 for the first Fiat 500 coming to the US...So LEAF in Jan probably, or Fiat 500 (non EV) in March...and heck I don't even need a car in truth...so waiting a bit isn't a problem either. I could even wait for 2012 and more EVs, but again that, to me, wouldn't be giving a strong message to Auto makers to MAKE more EVs now.

So....grrrrr....do I support the LEAF as it is a great car and the first mainstream affordable highway speed EV...or do i support the Fiat so that they keep those cars coming to the US and hopefully not be fibbing about an EV in 2 years????

Gah. Part of it is also this silly issue that is likely all in my head. I supported the Aptera for so long, and then bailed. Now I almost feel like if I bail on Nissan, well is there an issue with me?? Am I just jumping in, but then not following through?

That said, I know that Nissan will be fine without my one order. I also know I would be fine and happy with a LEAF. A good, reliable car that has no emissions and is powered by the solar panels on my roof.

So....do I move ahead with the LEAF...and cancel my Fiat 500 spot.

Or do I cancel the LEAF and keep the 500...and also go get an electric motorcycle? Kinda like a funner Volt. Motorcycle is EV for commuting and uses my solar panels and has no emissions, but then the Fiat is my long distance ride that uses gas...it would be my "range extender".

The first is a bit smarter I think. I have 2 scooters and 2 bicycles already. A car would be a better addition. And the LEAF will be a good reliable car.

The second is a bit more fun. The Fiat will be a fun car. The motorcycle will be a fun and clean ride to work.

Gah. Torn. Smart or fun. Grrr, I've always been horrid at this. I will somehow always make the wrong decision.

Of course I could just get the motorcycle and remain cageless for another 2 years till the Fiat EV comes....but I really do want to support things I like...I fear that if nobody buys the LEAF, that EVs will suffer....but it seems the LEAF is doing well. I really want the Fiat to succeed too, and fear that if America doesn't buy it, well we won't get the EV I really want.

Gah again...

anyways....I still have a bit of time to obsess over this.

but thanks for letting me rant.

Gavin

I would not buy a new vehicle I did not plan to keep ten years.

Gah! I'd be torn too. Wow, someone from Nissan called you just to discuss this? I'm impressed (in a slightly confused way!) :shock:

Big Hugs for Gavin........

Some Puns to cheer you up.... :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baUkshv-EIM

Cheers

mwalsh said:

Gah! I'd be torn too. Wow, someone from Nissan called you just to discuss this? I'm impressed (in a slightly confused way!) :shock:

Click to expand...

Ha...yes...I was surprised and then confused too...and then when I got the second call and they told me they had been reading my posts here and at ApteraForum, well then it was just a bit creepy.

But I somewhat understand...and a large part of that was my fault...kinda.

I actually thought I would help Nissan promote the LEAF by letting them show it at a local dealership once a month for a few hours...they can promote "See the new LEAF here in Albuquerque" etc etc...thought it was a win win...I would get to know the local dealership, they would get people interested in the LEAF and maybe take some pre orders.

Plus I was hoping they would just drop ship it to the local dealership....again, I get drop shipping (yea) and the local dealership gets to see and handle a real live LEAF before they can actually get one. Seemed win win....sigh...

Nissan kinda flipped. Thought it was very bad. etc etc...

oh well, over that...phone call left huge bad taste, but still think Nissan is great...maybe just a bit over their heads with sooo much being new. And I don't think they understand just how supportive us early adopters can be.

eh, its all good.

Usually I keep all my rides for over 10 years. The LEAF would be the first I didn't....at the same time, if I don't keep it, I might give it to my daughter.

Still not sure.

Gavin

Carlos said:

Big Hugs for Gavin........

Some Puns to cheer you up.... :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baUkshv-EIM

Cheers

Click to expand...

Ha... thanks


What will be horribly ironic is if my spot opens up today and i can go order

Gavin

you have a devil and an angel fighting in your head!

How about this: us poor bastards in non-roll out states, got to pay the $99 reservation fee, and we won't be able to order until "Fall/Winter 2011", how's that for a "nebulous" answer. Why even bother collecting deposits when they knew they couldn't deliver for such a long time. Yeah, yeah gage interest, that doesn't cut it with me.

Then I read about the PICC 2010 40-60 mile PHEV conversion kit, supposedly comming out the end of THIS year, no firm price, but expected to be in the $10-12K range (no rebate most likely). Yes, I am better off converting my 2010 Prius to a PHEV, than buying a Leaf, is the conculsion I have come to. I love my Prius, I have the Advanced Technology package, and I can't see "dumping" it to get a first generation Leaf. Keeping it, well that isn't very feasable either (if I where to get a Leaf), as the car will just continue to go down in value, and without daily use, who knows how it will hold up.

So I am resigned to get the PICC kit, if it comes out the end of this year, and if the price is reasonable, and if,if,if... and if none of it happens, I still have a 50mpg Prius that works just fine.

So to answer your dilema, don't worry about supporting Nissan, they can't even get out of their own way on the Leaf

I've read some strange things on here, but Gavin this takes the cake. It's beyond bizarre and creepy that Nissan is reading your posts, and then correlating your posts to your true identity. Then going yet another step in tracking you down and scolding you. There are quite a few people who have more then one residence, and a lot will leave a car at each to use when they are there. I don't understand at all why you would get hassled over your order. You have a legitimate address in Phoenix. Seems pretty arrogant to me. You have money, they have a car, how hard is it to understand? Nissan is in serious need of getting first vehicles into the hands of enthusiasts. Most people are going to need a lot of convincing to dump this much coin on something that might not even go 60 miles on a hot day a couple of years from now (according to Nissan's own information).

As there have been no announced plans for EV infrastructure outside of the rollout areas, why does it matter if you drive a Leaf around ABQ now, or six months from now? It's not likely that significant EV infrastructure is going to pop up between now and then. Additionally - by not including the QC port as standard fare on all cars, Nissan sends a message that - outside of rollout areas they expect everyone to simply charge at home. By not including the QC, Nissan has failed to apply pressure - through it's consumers - to local governments and businesses to install supporting QC infrastructure. I made repeated attempts to get Nissan to interact with local government entities up here in the Tahoe Basin to help figure out how to promote Tahoe as a "green" destination. (We were green long before green was the thing - only we called it "blue"). How much great publicity would there be for environmentally conscientious people from the big Sac and the Bay Area to be able to drive to Tahoe and explore the lake with no CO2 emissions? Nissan couldn't be bothered.

If I were Nissan reading your posts here - I'd be personally hiring a truck to drop your Leaf wherever you wanted it! What an asset you'd be to the cause.

Nissan should offer an explanation *on this board* as to their actions. It's really outrageous. How is anyone to now believe that things you post here, or elsewhere, haven't affected your ability to order and your will affect your delivery date?

Not hard to find me Nissan - I'm the only one from South Lake Tahoe who has placed an order. If you don't want to sell me the car - please let me know now as I have better things to do with my cash.

Oh - p.s. Daniel - you're screwed, dude!

Make no mistake that Nissan is hanging out here and following us. I just didn't know they were following us so intently. :shock: :?

We must be the Leaf version of 'Jersey Shore'.

Well as I said, I take a fair amount of blame (kinda) for the whole Nissan calling me on my cell phone.

The dealer I planned to go through told me he could get the car dropped shipped to Albuquerque if the local dealer would accept it.

So I emailed the local dealer and told him that if he accepted the drop shipment that I would gladly let him show the car once a month till Nissan got them a dealer car for them...Thought it would help Nissan and me and especially the LEAF.

Local dealer called Nissan about my email and Nissan got "upset". Not really sure why...I did talk to the manager in Tennessee the first time for over 30 minutes.

He told me he would call me back the next day...ended up being 4 days....I guess he had a lot of reading to do as I post a lot

Anyways....really that isn't the reason I might bail. Funny enough, if I was an Aug order or early Sept, I would likely already have an order in and wouldn't think twice...But Nissan has given me some time and now I think I might go electric motorcycle and gas car as my Volt substitute....and then pure EV in 2012 with electric motorcycle and electric Fiat as my LEAF substitute. At that time my wife will be getting a plug in prius, so that will be our part time gas car (her commute is very short, so she will be electric only almost all the time too).

For some reason Nissan is very worried about roll out and cars being beyond those few markets. That is their right. And probably good if the person buying a LEAF doesn't really understand the LEAF. But I'm not a Noob who doesn't understand the shortcomings of EVs. And I'm probably a good person to actually boost sales of EVs locally as I will stop and talk to anybody about my rides

That said, if Nissan wants to read my posts, heck I'm flattered...kinda

Its all good...I think it is just an over zealous person who at first was afraid I was buying a LEAF to then sell it for more money (silly), and then was worried I didn't know enough about EVs to understand what limitations they have (brother please...I have little doubt I know more about EVs than he does....heck, he had never heard of Aptera...and they have been working on their EV for years and are in the freaking xprize....grrrr).

I can still order my LEAF, I think .... so it's all good if that is the route I take.

Gavin

First thought: Dude it's your decision, it's really all your call. BUT since you asked...

Gavin said:

But I want to support the early EV makers to prove to them that the market is there so they keep making them and start building the infrastructure.
<snip>
And now the LEAF is doing so well that Nissan has stopped taking reservations. The LEAF seems pretty secure with or without me. And Nissan has let me know that they really would prefer that cars aren't in areas ahead of roll out.

Click to expand...

Add to this that everything that Nissan (especially through Carlos Gohsen and Mark Perry) has been saying, they are in this for the long haul. I do not think that this is a reason for you to buy the Leaf at this point.

Gavin said:

...I have wondered if my buying a car I like, but not quite the car I truly want, just to support EV adoption, well if that is what I really should do. Especially at 30k....I'm not Jay Leno, just a middle class guy.

Click to expand...

I am very much in the same boat as you. My current car is a 10 year old Mazda Miata. This is an expensive purchase for me, and if I could magically produce my perfect car, it would be something more like a Telsa Roadster with Nissan Leaf pricing :-D

Gavin said:

Add to that the fact that I would own the LEAF for only 2 or 3 years till the Fiat 500 EV comes out and then I would trade in the LEAF and get the Fiat...and maybe I should let another reservation holder take my place instead?

Click to expand...

If you really only plan to own it for that long, perhaps you could consider leasing it? That way you're not going into the large cost, you already are planning on getting rid of it at the end - maybe that's the solution?

Gavin said:

Gah. Part of it is also this silly issue that is likely all in my head. I supported the Aptera for so long, and then bailed. Now I almost feel like if I bail on Nissan, well is there an issue with me?? Am I just jumping in, but then not following through?

Click to expand...

Ok, first, I don't believe Aptera and Nissan can be compared at all. The fact that you hung on with Aptera as long as you did is more something to be commended for than be ashamed of. Nissan was another option, so you jumped to it. But things are opening up now with even MORE options and add to that Nissan is actively asking you to reconsider. This is a non-issue, and you shouldn't worry about it - there is nothing wrong with you.

I am not a leasing type of person. I would rather own things, and for me cars should be driven until they just can't be driven anymore. I am actually a little embarrassed that I'm looking at replacing my 10 year old Miata since it runs just fine. But if your plan is already to replace the car in 2-3 years, leasing might be worth looking at. Otherwise, if you do have the patience (which I think you've proved with the Aptera!) I say cancel the order and get what you really want, especially because you know it is coming. Why settle?

Oh, and just to cover it - I gain nothing if you cancel your order ;-) I've already ordered, and although I am hoping for a December delivery, I would never deny someone else their option just to make that happen.

Sounds like Nissan just lost a sale to one of their best customers. Sounds like you will be fine which ever decision you make. I have not seen any choices you have laid out that are ones to avoid. Its too bad Nissan is not trying to work hard to get these cars into the hands of customers like you instead of trying to keep it out of your hands.

Thanks Jason...great post. Ha...If Mazda made an electric Miata, I might be buying that right now Great little car. Good commuter and fun to drive. I figure a Miata with a Th!nk style battery--one big wedge under the seats---well that car would hug the road like all get out...

And thanks palmer...part of the problem for both the companies and us early adopters is...well we want the cars now....and the companies are both cautious (understandable) and also have a lot to do to get said cars to market.

Sadly I would like one ASAP...if I had a lifespan of a thousand years, well waiting a couple of years for a car isn't a big deal...but really I dislike waiting...and like Jason I tend to keep my rides till they rust out or I give to my kids.

The LEAF or the Fiat 500 non EV will be the first car I either lease or buy but sell in a couple of years....but my next car after that I plan to again ride till it dies.

Gavin

If I didn't have a wife and kid who would be commuting along I would be considering the Arcimoto Pulse. http://www.arcimoto.com/

Or just converting a classic ICE body to electric. But that would require time and money, things I do not have in excess at the moment.

Best of luck on what you choose.

Gavin said:

Local dealer called Nissan about my email and Nissan got "upset". Not really sure why...I did talk to the manager in Tennessee the first time for over 30 minutes.

Click to expand...

I'd put my finger on the local dealer being the culprit here. They just don't like someone else (from another state !) getting that sale. Nissan has to listen to their dealers. This is the same reason they weren't happy with open advertisements with major discounts.

Afterall it is all the Altima sales that pay for Leaf launch in the first place ....

Jeez, the forum stalking and calls from Tennessee are over the top. Don't those Tennessee folks have a factory to build? What, one Apple iAd and Nissan's turned into Apple-like control-freaks? Really, I think I wouldn't have been as diplomatic as you Gavin. As to your decision, I've never experienced a down-side to not buying a car. Even a car I really wanted, at the time.

Thanks Futura...last two sentences are very true...I really don't need the LEAF...Heck I don't need a Fiat either....

And evnow...yeah the local dealer could have be the initial problem...kinda short sighted and sad really...he could have had a LEAF in the showroom and gotten pre orders out the yinyang...he could have learned tons about it ahead of time, he could have his people looking it over ahead of time--both sales and service would have benefited...instead people who want one sooner will buy out of state and take to Albuquerque (the LEAF will be in Phoenix, Tucson and El Paso, Tx...all not too far from New Mexico (heck, El Paso is just over the state line...easy peasy).

Oh well...as I said, Nissan is a great company trying to do something fairly hard. I still support them and have nothing but good things to say about them and the LEAF...it just might not be the car for me. A bit bigger than I need as a commuter and wife taker to dinner car.

Gavin

evnow said:

Afterall it is all the Altima sales that pay for Leaf launch in the first place ....

Click to expand...

Now if Nissan had made the Altima coupe as their first EV...I wouldn't even think of changing my pre order...that car is sex on wheels.

Gavin

I would ignore the "flack" from Nissan as a significant factor. However, there are several factors that you have not really mentioned.

If Nissan wanted to require a driver's license from the state of order, or other proof of state or city residence, they could have tried to do so. They did not even think to ask where the car will be "garaged" and operated. They said one per address, not one per family. They should take the responsibility for their decisions, AV, web site, etc.

So, factors that might be significant to you:
1. Getting the LEAF serviced, at least the once-a-year required, free battery inspections, and such.
2. The CARWINGS coverage (perhaps to "watch" how your LEAF is holding up), might be missing is your area.
3. Roadside service will not be available, and being "stuck", or even a flat tire could make the EV look bad to the vulture press.
4. ... what else have I missed?

So, if you have thought through all the practical difficulties, what would you do if there had been no "flack" calls?

Don't worry about "supporting" the EV movement (and I agree, that is very strong for me too), but try to figure out what you REALLY want for "wheels". Sure, that is hard to do ... it is easier to get excited to be on the bandwagon!

Whatever you decide, we stand behind, and along side, and some in front of you.

You can come to visit and drive mine a bit, ... if my wife lets me actually get it (yes, it got "ordered" on 13 Sept).

No need to rush the decision.
Do NOT decide today, or even this month.

The AZ dealer will be happy to have an "orphan" to sell.
Dealers have asked for mine.

Keep both the LEAF order and the "Other" Reservation.

Wait until you have gone to AZ (or elsewhere) to test drive the LEAF.

Really, I feel that I have insufficient data to make a firm buying decision (warranty, features, functions, etc.). So, I am also waiting, and I even live in CA and SAT in a LEAF on 12 Sept.

Have a good Italian meal, with some vino, and good friends.

Cheers, Gary