2019 Leaf battery overheating

[OrientExpress]

This isn't heat. It's just you misrepresenting the truth, which is that a lot of people are less than happy with Nissan's battery packs and, especially, with their lack of active thermal management. If you can't even bring yourself to admit that much, your credibility is going to be on its last leg.

Actually this pathetic ranting just goes to show how far off of the mark this whole thermal management discussion is. Technology does not stand still, and the reality of the situation is that the LEAF with passive thermal management have been and are the best selling BEVs in the world today. There are more LEAFs in the world by a factor of two than the assumed best seller the Model 3, and worldwide the LEAF continues to sell more than enough vehicles to maintain that lead.

The main objection to the LEAF today is that its quick charging is perceived to be slow, but on closer examination it turns out that that slowness isn't all that slow, and in a typical worst-case daily multi-charge scenario (which is three quick charges) at most the charging is only 17 minutes slower than if all of the quick charges were completed at the charge rate of the first charge of the day.

Notice that the whole degradation issue has completely collapsed? Sure it was an issue with the early batteries, but that was simply part of the learning curve with the first of a completely new technology. But the learning from those early issues has resulted in stronger, more powerful, more resilient and more durable batteries. Sure there are always going to be edge cases, but in looking at the bigger picture, there are remedies in place that address and mitigate those edge cases.

Things improve over time, and it's time to admit that. Intelligent people don't get insulted when they get called out, they learn and update their knowledge of the subject.

That's what's the facts are, like it or not.

Here is a perfect example of how old information doesn't match up with the present:

Different issues now, but the conversation could very well turn back to capacity loss in hot climates, unless these new batteries are much more heat tolerant despite no active thermal management.

To answer this, yes, today's LEAF batteries are radically different from those in cars sold from 2011 to 2017. They have a different design, different chemistry, different architecture, and are much more powerful, and are able to work reliably in a much wider range of temperatures.

 

[OrientExpress]

meone you know who suggested your behavior was for personal gain by attempting to curry favor w/Nissan corporate.

Why else you would try to downplay, deflect and confuse people when there was clear capacity loss in hot climates via the posts that Tony pointed to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444? And, why would you then wipe virtually all of your own responses?

It seems the same pattern is emerging again, but of different issues...

Now here is a someone that is still living in 2011 and does not have a clue what is going on today. Time to grow up and get current on the subject. No one gives a **** what happened nine years ago.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

To answer this, yes, today's LEAF batteries are radically different from those in cars sold from 2011 to 2017. They have a different design, different chemistry, different architecture, and are much more powerful, and are able to work reliably in a much wider range of temperatures.

I have three years to see if this bears out. My town is a good place to test this, since we see temps in a given year range from 20 F to 115F. As for the time difference with DC fast charging, it took me two hours longer (11 vs 9 hours) to get where I'm going simply because I drove faster and used one more DCFC. The route was about 40 miles longer, but that shouldn't cause a 2 hour difference. The drive was Yuma>Blythe>Palm Desert>San Bernardino>Victorville>Ridgecrest.I started with 100% out of Yuma, and DCFC'ed at each stop listed, to about 80-85% each time. Note the ambient temps got up to 100 or so around Palm Desert. All but the first DCFC in Blythe was temperature limited.

 

[OrientExpress]

I'm gonna assume that your DFCFC sessions were between 30 and 45 minutes, and it sounds like the charging profile you encountered is the normal one for quick charges 3 through N. 18kW for charge 3 and 4 is about what I would expect. I would not characterize the later charges as temperature limited, but rather the normal profile that the BMS uses to protect the battery. It will use the exact same profile with ambient temperatures in the 60s and 70s.

I found in my test where I was driving at 80+ for the entire route, driving faster does not always make the trip faster. I also found that if the BMS did let the charging proceed at the pace of the first charge of the day, in my case 35Kw, that the third and fourth charges would only be reduced by 15 minutes for each one. In other words if battery protection was overridden you would only knock 30 minutes off of the total charge session time. In the test, I would bring the car in for a charge when the capacity reached 20%, and in charge 2 the car recharged itself to 88% in 45 minutes and 62% in charge 3.

The challenge for all BEVs at this point in time is that all of them taper the charge regardless if they are passively or actively cooled. It has more with the basic makeup of the lithium battery today than anything else.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Notice that the whole degradation issue has completely collapsed?

The 2016-2017 30kwh packs are experiencing accelerated degradation in what appears to be large numbers. Like the 2011- 3/2013 'Canary' packs they seem to generally (with exceptions) do ok in chilly climates, but not where it is warm. 2017 is just two years ago. The 40wkh pack seems so far to degrade slower, but there are still a significant number of defective cells in them (like the 30kwh version). The jury is still out on these packs, but I think we can render a verdict on your posting behavior: you are just a shill for Nissan, willing to go to ridiculous lengths to deny even proven facts like the extreme DCFC 'throttling' experienced by many 40kwh and even some 62kwh Leaf drivers. You are not the only one here who argues against the Leaf having a TMS, but you are all alone in your slavish devotion to parroting the Nissan line even when it is clearly a lie. You can expect any shilling to be countered immediately.

 

[WetEV]

Notice that the whole degradation issue has completely collapsed?

The 2016-2017 30kwh packs are experiencing accelerated degradation in what appears to be large numbers. Like the 2011- 3/2013 'Canary' packs they seem to generally (with exceptions) do ok in chilly climates, but not where it is warm. 2017 is just two years ago. The 40wkh pack seems so far to degrade slower, but there are still a significant number of defective cells in them (like the 30kwh version). The jury is still out on these packs, but I think we can render a verdict on your posting behavior: you are just a shill for Nissan, willing to go to ridiculous lengths to deny even proven facts like the extreme DCFC 'throttling' experienced by many 40kwh and even some 62kwh Leaf drivers. You are not the only one here who argues against the Leaf having a TMS, but you are all alone in your slavish devotion to parroting the Nissan line even when it is clearly a lie. You can expect any shilling to be countered immediately.

That isn't a moderating response.

 

[LeftieBiker]

That isn't a moderating response.

I have two answers to that. First, I am primarily a forum participant here (although sometimes spam removal supersedes that). Second, I have promised other participants that I will respond to OE's misinformation so they don't have to read it all. I've already tried the gentler approach with OE. Now my patience is more worn. I'm not going to do things that other mods might do, like edit his posts or ban him, but he can expect to be called on posting what is essentially propaganda.

 

[OrientExpress]

The 2016-2017 30kwh packs are experiencing accelerated degradation in what appears to be large numbers. .

Again this is 2019, and the issue with the 30kWh packs were corrected with a BMS upgrade a while ago. There are some edge cases with the 30kW batteries, but they are the minority of instances, and those batteries are replaced under warranty. The 30 kWh battery was the last of the original style battery and has shown great improvement, but still had room for improvement.

In 2018, the 30kWh battery was superseded with the current battery architecture that is different than the previous generation of battery designs. it has a completely different chemistry, pack architecture, and power output and operational temperature profile. For 2021 there will be yet another battery introduced that will continue to build on the increased performance of previous packs.

And yes all batteries have some degradation, but has become a non-issue for the LEAF from 2016 on. There will always be edge cases, and for those instances, there are perfectly satisfactory remedies

Now I realize that there are several members of this forum that have very strongly held but unsupportable positions that may have had some validity many years ago, and conflict with the current state of things, but things change, and things improve.

Now it is true that I know quite a bit more about the LEAF and its architecture than most of the antagonists here, and I do not have an issue with helping them to understand the issues that they hold such stubborn and juvenile position on. My contacts in the industry are broad, not only at Nissan, but with many other manufacturers in the BEV space. I trust what they tell me.

Now if these antagonists feel comfortable in behaving like 12 year olds having a tantrums insisting that they know better, that is their prerogative, but do not expect me to follow their lead.

 

[jlv]

For the last nine years the LEAF has been the best selling BEV in the world by over a 2:1 ratio to its closest competitor the Model 3 and continues to sell well and maintain that lead worldwide. ... Long distance travel is not a BEVs strong suite.

The LEAF is the bestselling BEV worldwide ...

You keep saying that. I think the LEAF was the best selling EV in the world.

From InsideEVs - first three years of US Sales

LEAF starting 2011
2011 9674 (13 months)
2012 9819
2013 22610

Model 3 start 2017
2017 1764 (6 months)
2018 139782
2019 46425 (5 months)

The first 37 months saw Nissan sell 42094 LEAFs.
The first 23 months saw Tesla sell 187971 3s.

If I just count the first 23 months of sales of both (since that's all the data on the 3), then the 3 outsells the LEAF by 10x.

And those sales were back when the LEAF had minimal competition in the BEV space.

...No one gives a **** what happened nine years ago.

For the moment the LEAF still holds the record for the most cumulative sales worldwide, but that won't hold much longer.

Long distance travel is not a LEAFs strong suite.

I corrected this for you.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

I only got full-rate DC fast charge in Blythe. The rest of the trip the battery temp was at the top of the normal range and charging was reduced to 20KW as a result. I spent about an hour at each charging point except for Blythe. My last Yuma trip I did Yuma>Palm Desert>Calimesa>Victorville>Ridgecrest, and also started with 100%. The difference was I did the Yuma to Palm Desert at 55-60 MPH and had I believe full power charging up until Victorville. Weather was cooler, and there was lots of traffic on the 10 which meant I wasn't going fast and putting lots of heat into the battery. The fact of the matter is this car is limited to one DC fast charge per day when it's hot out, before the charge power is reduced by half or more. Iike I've said a couple times before, some sort of thermal management will mitigate this. I don't think it will completely eliminate the issue, but it will help to remove heat from the pack. For now I'll be renting a car to go to Yuma. Anywhere else like Las Vegas, Ontario/Rancho Cucamonga, Lancaster/Palmdale or LA the LEAF should be no problem. For now I'm with LeftieBike. The jury is out for the 40 and 62 KWh packs.

 

[smkettner]

Ever think that some people might not want liquid cooling for their BEV?

Ever think Nissan should explain the limitations of L3?

all I hear is "80% full in 30 minutes" as if this can be done all day long.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

Ever think that some people might not want liquid cooling for their BEV?

Ever think Nissan should explain the limitations of L3?

all I hear is "80% full in 30 minutes" as if this can be done all day long.

Yep, they should explain it. It's a major limitation.

 

[OrientExpress]

Why do you guys insist on being so bullheaded? The LEAF is the best selling BEV in the WORLD period. The LEAF is currently sold on every continent on earth except the obvious one. The LEAF like the Model 3 is a world car.

As of April 2019 there are over 400,000 LEAFs sold worldwide since inception in 2011

As of April 2019 there have been about 192805 Model 3s sold worldwide. (Corrected and clarified)

The sales run rate for the LEAF is about 6500/month worldwide.

The future sales run rate for the Model 3 is about 8200/month worldwide based on industry forecasts. (Clarified)

As of April 2019 the Model 3 is 207195 units behind the LEAF.

If there was not another LEAF sold ever, it will take the Model 3 25 months to achieve sales parity with the LEAF. (Corrected to reflect higher model 3 sales worldwide.)

If the current run rate for the LEAF continues in 29 months the LEAF will have sold almost 590,000 units.

At that point, the Model 3 have sold 400,000 and will still be behind by 190,000 units.

Source: car sales base

 

[OrientExpress]

Ever think that some people might not want liquid cooling for their BEV?

Ever think Nissan should explain the limitations of L3?

all I hear is "80% full in 30 minutes" as if this can be done all day long.

Yep, they should explain it. It's a major limitation.

Every BEV manufacturer has the same charge limitations as the LEAF regardless is their battery is passively or actively cooled. Some are more conservative than the LEAF, some are less conservative , but it is not unique to the LEAF.

This is why I do not currently recommend any BEV for a long distance trip that is more than 200-250 miles in one day. Based on the state of the art in battery technology development, I expect that this shortcoming will be largely mitigated by 2023.

Thankfully today over 90-95% of all miles driven by all BEVs is under 100 miles daily. If your driving patterns fit outside this the norm, then perhaps a BEV is your best choice for transportation.

 

[OrientExpress]

Yep, they should explain it. It's a major limitation.

There are at least five places where quick charging constraints are discussed:

- In the four page LEAF customer information and disclosure form that you should have been asked to sign when purchasing or leasing the car
- In Section EV of the owners Manual
- In Section CH of the owners manual
- In Section 2, Instruments and Controls
- To a limited extent in the Warranty Information booklet

The disadvantage of this extensive amount of disclosures and instructions is that it requires the operator to actually read them and understand what they are reading. This is further complicated by the fact that most operators will never push their LEAF to this sort of extreme, at least not more than once.

 

[91040]

@OrientExpress-
The Ad hominem attacks, name calling, belittling and bandwagon fallacies in your mode of argument do not justify your viewpoint or give it credibility.

The argument should be about the ideas and the supporting evidence that address the topic. Time will prove which, if any, are correct.

As you desire that your opinion be heard, you should accept that others have the right to express theirs.

 

[OrientExpress]

@OrientExpress-
The Ad hominem attacks, name calling, belittling and bandwagon fallacies in your mode of argument do not justify your viewpoint or give it credibility.

Show me what you are talking about and I'll show you just as many attacks on me by this group.

 

[jlv]

Currently there have been about 160,000 Model 3s sold worldwide.
The sales run rate for the Model 3 is about 8200/month worldwide.

Where did these numbers come from? They aren't close for the 3.

According to InsideEVs U.S. sales charts:

Currently there have been 187971 Model 3s sold in the U.S. as of the end of May.
The average sales rate for the Model 3 in the U.S. for the last 5 months has been 9285/month:
( 6500+5750+10175+10050+13950 ) / 5 = 9285

The U.S. only numbers are far greater than what you claim for the worldwide figures.

I don't know of a source for non-U.S. sales numbers. I think that at least half the Model 3 production for the last 5 months has gone to Europe. That would make your numbers woefully inaccurate.

 

[smkettner]

Thankfully today over 90-95% of all miles driven by all BEVs is under 100 miles daily. If your driving patterns fit outside this the norm, then perhaps a BEV is your best choice for transportation.

How would a general consumer know of the limitation?
Sure we all know. Most of the public does not.

This is so different than the fill-and-go fill-and-go that everyone is used to.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

Thankfully today over 90-95% of all miles driven by all BEVs is under 100 miles daily. If your driving patterns fit outside this the norm, then perhaps a BEV is your best choice for transportation.

How would a general consumer know of the limitation?
Sure we all know. Most of the public does not.

This is so different than the fill-and-go fill-and-go that everyone is used to.

DCFC was supposed to be the closest EV equivalent of fill-and-go.