2019 Leaf battery overheating

[LeftieBiker]

Now it is true that I know quite a bit more about the LEAF and its architecture than most of the antagonists here, and I do not have an issue with helping them to understand the issues that they hold such stubborn and juvenile position on.

Heh. You didn't know that the sides of tires are called "sidewalls," we had to explain what a state of charge display was to you, and just today you claimed that Leafs are being sold in Antarctica (hint: it's a continent)*. The best thing about your dis-informational posts is that they are always easy to counter. That still doesn't make reading them all, every day, pleasant...




*

The LEAF is currently sold on every continent on earth.

 

[OrientExpress]

How would a general consumer know of the limitation?
Sure we all know. Most of the public does not.

This is so different than the fill-and-go fill-and-go that everyone is used to.

It is an issue for concern industry wide, and an area that needs more attention in the general media. We are working on that.

 

[OrientExpress]

Where did these numbers come from? They aren't close for the 3.

I took another look at the numbers that I posted and yes, they are a bit low which I have corrected, but it only decreased how far the Model 3 is behind by 4 months.

The more accurate numbers for sales worldwide are at the end of April for the Model 3 and is closer to 192805. With that it is estimated Model 3 sales would hit parity with the current LEAF sales of 400,000 in 25 months or July 2021. By then total Worldwide sales of the LEAF will be at around 590,000-600000 units.

Another difference is that there are really only semi solid-numbers up to April because as you know, Tesla US monthly sales are estimates, while the annual totals are exact figures based on the company’s quarterly reports.

The future run rate numbers are not based on averaging past monthly estimates, but rather estimates from industry analysts like Bloomberg, and others. For now the future monthly estimate is still 8200 WW.

Where I get this data from is from an industry focused reporting tool that is based in the Netherlands which tracks sales data for vehicle manufacturers world wide, with emphasis on European, US, and Chinese car sales by marque and model along with the rest of world by country. I hope this helps.

 

[WetEV]

Every BEV manufacturer has the same charge limitations as the LEAF regardless is their battery is passively or actively cooled. Some are more conservative than the LEAF, some are less conservative , but it is not unique to the LEAF.

For the first DCQC of the day, perhaps. Someplace after around 300-400 miles with the LEAF Plus, passive vs active cooling should make a difference. After sitting in the car for over 5 hours, your next stop is longer without active cooling, and more expensive as DCQC time is billed rather than power, at least locally. With active cooling, the next stop would be similar to the first stop. 300-400 miles is a fairly long day.

I don't like trips with more than 1 DCQC, and that's with a 24kWh LEAF. Life has changed, and now I find myself making such trips too often. Thinking seriously abut a LEAF Plus. Will almost eliminate the need for QC stops for me.

Need to go 500 miles or more?

Try Amtrak. Take a bus. Rent an ICE. Fly. Take a week, and ride a bicycle.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

Every BEV manufacturer has the same charge limitations as the LEAF regardless is their battery is passively or actively cooled. Some are more conservative than the LEAF, some are less conservative , but it is not unique to the LEAF.

For the first DCQC of the day, perhaps. Someplace after around 300-400 miles with the LEAF Plus, passive vs active cooling should make a difference. After sitting in the car for over 5 hours, your next stop is longer without active cooling, and more expensive as DCQC time is billed rather than power, at least locally. With active cooling, the next stop would be similar to the first stop. 300-400 miles is a fairly long day.

I don't like trips with more than 1 DCQC, and that's with a 24kWh LEAF. Life has changed, and now I find myself making such trips too often. Thinking seriously abut a LEAF Plus. Will almost eliminate the need for QC stops for me.

Need to go 500 miles or more?

Try Amtrak. Take a bus. Rent an ICE. Fly. Take a week, and ride a bicycle.

The lack of cooling makes a difference after just the first quick charge. My experience just last Monday bears that out. That said the LEAF Plus is much more useful than the 24 or 30 KWh cars I had before. I have the SL and it has the propilot assist which is very nice to have in traffic.

 

[lorenfb]

Today I was able to determine my 2019 40 kWh Leaf's battery resistance and compare it to my 2013 Leaf.

2019 40 kWh Leaf Battery Resistance Determination Using LeafSpy

I. Procedure - Very Generic for any BEV
a. Locate a very low density traffic street with about an 1/8 of a mile straight-away
b. With the vehicle turned on and in P mode, scroll to the LeafSpy screen to measure battery voltage (volts),
battery current (amps), battery temperature, and SOC (all on one screen).
c. Make sure there’s no traffic, place the vehicle in D mode (ECO on) and fully depress the accelerator
pedal (a basic “launch mode”) and hold for a few seconds until both the battery & current values
stabilize (about 3 seconds) and then record the battery voltage and current.

2. Calculation of battery resistance

V1 - battery voltage determined in “b”.
V2 - battery voltage determined in “c”
I - battery current determined in “c”

Battery Resistance = (V1 - V2) / I

3. Actual in-car tests, (temp - 85F, SOC - 57%)
a. V1 - 355, V2 - 340, I - 365
R = (355 - 340) / 365 = .041 ohms

b. V1 - 355, V2 - 336, I = 366
R = (355 - 336) / 366, I = .052 ohms

R (average) = .047 ohms

4. 2019 40 kWh versus 2013 24 kWh battery resistance

Ratio of 2019 / 2013 = .047 / .060 = 80%

Theoretically the ratio of resistances based on battery sizes (24 / 40) should be 60%,
which indicates that the 2019 battery resistance should be about .036 ohms. This indicates
that the 2019 battery will typically be hotter when charging or driving than it would be had
the battery resistance scaled as expected - given the higher capacity - more cells/pouches in parallel.

Hopefully, someone with a Leaf Plus and a another with a 30 kWh Leaf will do the above very simple/fast test,
so comparative data for all Leaf models are available.

Upper left of LeafSpy screen displays battery voltage & current. Battery temp & SOC are also displayed on that screen.

6/6/19
Tests were done on the 2013 Leaf using both the LeafSpy method and the automatic method included in LeaF DD.
Both methods correlated.

 

[OrientExpress]

The lack of cooling makes a difference after just the first quick charge.

My experience has been that charging profile is really not that much different from the Kia Niro I had last week, and took to the 85kW chargers we have, or my usual 50 kW charger depot that the Niro is actively cooled, and is CCS. I found on a 50 kW charger the Plus and the Niro only lost about 8kw from start to finish. It wasn't until the third charge that it started and finished at 18 kW.

For the 85kW they both started at 57kW and ended at at 45kW for the first charge, but wasn't able to get a second charge that day.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

Today I was able to determine my 2019 40 kWh Leaf's battery resistance and compare it to my 2013 Leaf.

2019 40 kWh Leaf Battery Resistance Determination Using LeafSpy

I. Procedure - Very Generic for any BEV
a. Locate a very low density traffic street with about an 1/8 of a mile straight-away
b. With the vehicle turned on and in P mode, scroll to the LeafSpy screen to measure battery voltage (volts),
battery current (amps), battery temperature, and SOC (all on one screen).
c. Make sure there’s no traffic, place the vehicle in D mode (ECO on) and fully depress the accelerator
pedal (a basic “launch mode”) and hold for a few seconds until both the battery & current values
stabilize (about 3 seconds) and then record the battery voltage and current.

2. Calculation of battery resistance

V1 - battery voltage determined in “b”.
V2 - battery voltage determined in “c”
I - battery current determined in “c”

Battery Resistance = (V1 - V2) / I

3. Actual in-car tests, (temp - 85F, SOC - 57%)
a. V1 - 355, V2 - 340, I - 365
R = (355 - 340) / 365 = .041 ohms

b. V1 - 355, V2 - 336, I = 366
R = (355 - 336) / 366, I = .052 ohms

R (average) = .047 ohms

4. 2019 40 kWh versus 2013 24 kWh battery resistance

Ratio of 2019 / 2013 = .047 / .060 = 80%

Theoretically the ratio of resistances based on battery sizes (24 / 40) should be 60%,
which indicates that the 2019 battery resistance should be about .036 ohms. This indicates
that the 2019 battery will typically be hotter when charging or driving than it would be had
the battery resistance scaled as expected - given the higher capacity - more cells/pouches in parallel.

Hopefully, someone with a Leaf Plus and a another with a 30 kWh Leaf will do the above very simple/fast test,
so comparative data for all Leaf models are available.

I have an OBD II dongle on the way, so I'll give it a shot with my LEAF Plus when I get it.

 

[lorenfb]

Today I was able to determine my 2019 40 kWh Leaf's battery resistance and compare it to my 2013 Leaf.

2019 40 kWh Leaf Battery Resistance Determination Using LeafSpy

I. Procedure - Very Generic for any BEV
a. Locate a very low density traffic street with about an 1/8 of a mile straight-away
b. With the vehicle turned on and in P mode, scroll to the LeafSpy screen to measure battery voltage (volts),
battery current (amps), battery temperature, and SOC (all on one screen).
c. Make sure there’s no traffic, place the vehicle in D mode (ECO on) and fully depress the accelerator
pedal (a basic “launch mode”) and hold for a few seconds until both the battery & current values
stabilize (about 3 seconds) and then record the battery voltage and current.

2. Calculation of battery resistance

V1 - battery voltage determined in “b”.
V2 - battery voltage determined in “c”
I - battery current determined in “c”

Battery Resistance = (V1 - V2) / I

3. Actual in-car tests, (temp - 85F, SOC - 57%)
a. V1 - 355, V2 - 340, I - 365
R = (355 - 340) / 365 = .041 ohms

b. V1 - 355, V2 - 336, I = 366
R = (355 - 336) / 366, I = .052 ohms

R (average) = .047 ohms

4. 2019 40 kWh versus 2013 24 kWh battery resistance

Ratio of 2019 / 2013 = .047 / .060 = 80%

Theoretically the ratio of resistances based on battery sizes (24 / 40) should be 60%,
which indicates that the 2019 battery resistance should be about .036 ohms. This indicates
that the 2019 battery will typically be hotter when charging or driving than it would be had
the battery resistance scaled as expected - given the higher capacity - more cells/pouches in parallel.

Hopefully, someone with a Leaf Plus and a another with a 30 kWh Leaf will do the above very simple/fast test,
so comparative data for all Leaf models are available.

I have an OBD II dongle on the way, so I'll give it a shot with my LEAF Plus when I get it.

Great!

 

[ChozoGhost79]

Today I was able to determine my 2019 40 kWh Leaf's battery resistance and compare it to my 2013 Leaf.

2019 40 kWh Leaf Battery Resistance Determination Using LeafSpy

I. Procedure - Very Generic for any BEV
a. Locate a very low density traffic street with about an 1/8 of a mile straight-away
b. With the vehicle turned on and in P mode, scroll to the LeafSpy screen to measure battery voltage (volts),
battery current (amps), battery temperature, and SOC (all on one screen).
c. Make sure there’s no traffic, place the vehicle in D mode (ECO on) and fully depress the accelerator
pedal (a basic “launch mode”) and hold for a few seconds until both the battery & current values
stabilize (about 3 seconds) and then record the battery voltage and current.

2. Calculation of battery resistance

V1 - battery voltage determined in “b”.
V2 - battery voltage determined in “c”
I - battery current determined in “c”

Battery Resistance = (V1 - V2) / I

3. Actual in-car tests, (temp - 85F, SOC - 57%)
a. V1 - 355, V2 - 340, I - 365
R = (355 - 340) / 365 = .041 ohms

b. V1 - 355, V2 - 336, I = 366
R = (355 - 336) / 366, I = .052 ohms

R (average) = .047 ohms

4. 2019 40 kWh versus 2013 24 kWh battery resistance

Ratio of 2019 / 2013 = .047 / .060 = 80%

Theoretically the ratio of resistances based on battery sizes (24 / 40) should be 60%,
which indicates that the 2019 battery resistance should be about .036 ohms. This indicates
that the 2019 battery will typically be hotter when charging or driving than it would be had
the battery resistance scaled as expected - given the higher capacity - more cells/pouches in parallel.

Hopefully, someone with a Leaf Plus and a another with a 30 kWh Leaf will do the above very simple/fast test,
so comparative data for all Leaf models are available.

I have an OBD II dongle on the way, so I'll give it a shot with my LEAF Plus when I get it.

Great!

Quick test run with my LEAF Plus:

(355.8 V1- 341.6 V2) / 461.8 A at full accelerator

= Pack resistance = .0307 Ohm

 

[ChozoGhost79]

https://youtu.be/DdgqBON5k0I

 

[lorenfb]

Quick test run with my LEAF Plus:

(355.8 V1- 341.6 V2) / 461.8 A at full accelerator

= Pack resistance = .0307 Ohm

Thanks for doing the test. Your results are what one would expect based on the peak current (462) your 62 kWh Leaf developed.

Leaf advertised data:

We now have the following results:

My 2013 24kWh at 17K miles, 85 F - .060 ohms
My 2019 40 kWh at 2K miles, 85 F - .047 ohms
Your 2019 62 kWh at ? miles, 100 F - .031 ohms (would be a little higher at 85 F, versus 100 F where the data were taken)

The expected resistances for the larger batteries based on the 24 kWh Leaf; .036, .023 ohms.

So the battery resistance values are somewhat scaling as theoretically expected, i.e. a decreased battery resistance as the battery capacity
increases. Assuming each typically charges at 100 amps (~ 38 kW), the respective battery power losses (battery heating - I^2XR) would be;
600 watts, 470 watts, & 310 watts respectively. The theoretical charging times for each battery capacity (66 Ahr, 111 Ahr, 172 Ahr) would be;
40 minutes, 67 minutes, 103 minutes. The energy dissipated (watt-hrs) by each; 400, 525, and 532. The differences in energy losses (heat)
from the larger batteries is the result of not having the expected lower battery resistances. This can potentially explain why the 40/62 kWh
Leafs experience higher battery temperatures while charging, resulting in throttling of the charging power.

 

[paraski40]

If you still did not signed the petition, it's about time, only 12 signatures needed to get the 500 mark.

https://www.change.org/p/nissan-north-america-fix-rapidgate-for-early-2018-leaf-buyers

 

[ChozoGhost79]

If you still did not signed the petition, it's about time, only 12 signatures needed to get the 500 mark.

https://www.change.org/p/nissan-north-america-fix-rapidgate-for-early-2018-leaf-buyers

Done. Granted the petition is for earlier 2018 models, but mine has that issue and it's a 2019 Plus model.

 

[paraski40]

If you still did not signed the petition, it's about time, only 12 signatures needed to get the 500 mark.

https://www.change.org/p/nissan-north-america-fix-rapidgate-for-early-2018-leaf-buyers

Done. Granted the petition is for earlier 2018 models, but mine has that issue and it's a 2019 Plus model.

It's not clear if the problem as been corrected on new North American Leaf or not. Do you have data, like temperature of the battery and recharge power when you start charging ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If you still did not signed the petition, it's about time, only 12 signatures needed to get the 500 mark.

https://www.change.org/p/nissan-north-america-fix-rapidgate-for-early-2018-leaf-buyers

Done. Granted the petition is for earlier 2018 models, but mine has that issue and it's a 2019 Plus model.

It's not clear if the problem as been corrected on new North American Leaf or not. Do you have data, like temperature of the battery and recharge power when you start charging ?

It is VERY clear that later 2018's and 2019's have no fix of any kind concerning RapidGate.

 

[lorenfb]

If you still did not signed the petition, it's about time, only 12 signatures needed to get the 500 mark.

Done. Granted the petition is for earlier 2018 models, but mine has that issue and it's a 2019 Plus model.

The present U.S. BMS firmware with reduced charging rates results in battery temps approaching 120-125 F for long charging
times. Those temperatures will increase battery degradation. If the BMS is re-flashed for increased battery charging rates,
the long term Leaf battery degradation will be further compounded. For those with leases, that problem is most likely of little
concern, but for those who purchased their Leaf, that potentially should be of a major concern. The battery temperature
problem is potentially more problematic in the U.S. versus Europe, given the difference in the average summer temperatures
and the longer typical inter city drives requiring more sequential charging.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

Done. Granted the petition is for earlier 2018 models, but mine has that issue and it's a 2019 Plus model.

It's not clear if the problem as been corrected on new North American Leaf or not. Do you have data, like temperature of the battery and recharge power when you start charging ?

It is VERY clear that later 2018's and 2019's have no fix of any kind concerning RapidGate.

I will have to try DCFC again, now that I have LEAFSpy. My experience so far is in ambient temperatures of about 100F. First DCFC is at expected charge rates, but the second after a about 100 mile drive, the temperature display in the car was at the top of the normal operating range, and DCFC was throttled down to about 19-20 KW. This happened the rest of the trip as well.

 

[ChozoGhost79]

If you still did not signed the petition, it's about time, only 12 signatures needed to get the 500 mark.

Done. Granted the petition is for earlier 2018 models, but mine has that issue and it's a 2019 Plus model.

The present U.S. BMS firmware with reduced charging rates results in battery temps approaching 120-125 F for long charging
times. Those temperatures will increase battery degradation. If the BMS is re-flashed for increased battery charging rates,
the long term Leaf battery degradation will be further compounded. For those with leases, that problem is most likely of little
concern, but for those who purchased their Leaf, that potentially should be of a major concern. The battery temperature
problem is potentially more problematic in the U.S. versus Europe, given the difference in the average summer temperatures
and the longer typical inter city drives requiring more sequential charging.

It's possible in the US market they may not implement this fix, for this reason.

 

[LeftieBiker]

First DCFC is at expected charge rates, but the second after a about 100 mile drive, the temperature display in the car was at the top of the normal operating range, and DCFC was throttled down to about 19-20 KW. This happened the rest of the trip as well.

This appears to be Nissan's idea of 'Normal and acceptable.'