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So, they've done some work on the Grabby Brakes problem? :D

Are these codes something my (otherwise useless) Scan Gauge could read? Or is there now a family of "secret EV codes"?
 
gbarry42 said:
So, they've done some work on the Grabby Brakes problem? :D

Are these codes something my (otherwise useless) Scan Gauge could read? Or is there now a family of "secret EV codes"?

My OBD II (with or without CAN bus) scan tool that I have used on numerous ICE vehicles will not communicate at all with the LEAF. I can understand why it will not look at the EV CAN bus, but it should be able to read DTC's if the LEAF were truly OBD II compliant.

Gerry
 
GerryAZ said:
gbarry42 said:
So, they've done some work on the Grabby Brakes problem? :D

Are these codes something my (otherwise useless) Scan Gauge could read? Or is there now a family of "secret EV codes"?

My OBD II (with or without CAN bus) scan tool that I have used on numerous ICE vehicles will not communicate at all with the LEAF. I can understand why it will not look at the EV CAN bus, but it should be able to read DTC's if the LEAF were truly OBD II compliant.

Gerry
Unfortunately, OBD II compliance is only required with ICE vehicles, so Nissan is in the clear.
 
Heard back from someone at Nissan's Dispute Resolution Team. They offered me a free service contract, but won't do anything about my issues.

They don't want to fix it and have fought me on everything I've done to try to help them. I've offered to give them the photos and videos of the car doing it's weirdness and they repeatedly turned me down. The worst part is, at every step along the way, they cannot repeat back to me the what I said the issues are. If they can't write down what I say, they're just blindly looking for any issue...

I've given up on Nissan and will avoid them as if it were a swarm of bees.
 
saintyohann said:
Heard back from someone at Nissan's Dispute Resolution Team. They offered me a free service contract, but won't do anything about my issues.
I'm very sorry to hear that!

So, if the warranty on the LEAF does not cover problems like the one you are having, what exactly DOES it cover?!

At some point, I have to wonder about the benefit we get by taking time each year to give Nissan a free look-see at our batteries if they do not disclose that information honestly and don't use it to help us out. It's very frustrating!
 
RegGuheert said:
So, if the warranty on the LEAF does not cover problems like the one you are having, what exactly DOES it cover?!

It seems that it would cover nothing.. I did get a right rear tire replaced under warranty, but that was through a seperate company. They certaintly seem to be shooting themselves in the foot everyday as time goes on... Would seem to me this is some sort of connector or wiring issue. Especially if it is intermitent like that, and not easily replicated. See this in aircraft a lot. They will go flying and have an electrical issue. Troubleshoot on the ground and cannot repeat. Not sticking up for the techs as they really need to get down in to the wiring and look, but if they aren't getting backup from Nissan engineers it will be nearly impossible to track down.
 
I have to say I've found this whole saga to be completely bizarre. They do realize that if they don't fix it, they'll end up taking it back? The car is undoubtedly failing, it should have been a no brainer that it needs repair. I understand perfectly why you might not want to try, but I'd be sorely tempted to write the whole fiasco up and try to get it farther up the food chain at Nissan, especially to someone responsible for LEAF.
 
I have been trying to keep everything together into one big letter for the BBB hearing, but now I want to send it reporters. It seems that is the only way to get Nissan's attention.

I think I'll try to clean it up a little and post it here as a recap to date.
 
saintyohann said:
I have been trying to keep everything together into one big letter for the BBB hearing, but now I want to send it reporters. It seems that is the only way to get Nissan's attention.

I think I'll try to clean it up a little and post it here as a recap to date.


Good idea. Post it here at the end, and also on the very first post at the beginning as an edit so folks don't have to read all the way through to get the information.
 
My issues started when I got the voluntary software update from Feb/March.

When I took my car in, they said they had to download the update and install it, maybe 1.5-2 hrs. The car was done and washed in 40 minutes. The car started dropping bars when powered off almost immediately after the update. I charged to 100% at the Walgreens in Poway and drove 1.1 miles. The dash said 10 minutes to 100% (at 240V) and I powered off. 5 minutes later I turned on the car and I lost a bar and it said 1 hour of charging to full. I went into the dealership 3 times with questions in the month after the update, because of various weird things going on (Nav system freezing, re-booting, or windows freezing, loosing bars on power off, regen "bubbles" always available, losing bars while off, forgetting my bluetooth phone), but I never left the car because it was usually minor and I needed the car.

Then about three weeks after the update, the car completely froze. I could put the car in Park or Neutral, but not Drive or Reverse. I also could not turn off the car. Nissan sent a tow truck and towed the car to El Cajon Nissan. The car was still stuck on, but after a few tries with a salesperson (it was after service hours) it did turn off, but some of the dash warning lights were still on. After turning the car on there was an i-key fault error and I still could not shift into D or R. After a few more power off/on cycles, it would go into both D and R. A few days later they called me back in. The service writer told me there was nothing wrong with the car and it passed their diagnostics with no codes. But I had gone in the day after I dropped off the car to speak with their Leaf Tech and I saw the almost 3 pages of fault codes, I wrote down as many as I could before they took the pages away from me. Only when I pressed the service writer on the fact that I had seen the pages of codes, he said they were all un-related, and there was nothing wrong with the car.

Issues:
- Dropping capacity while parked and off (I can lose 3-4 bars in a matter of hours after I park). One time I parked at work with 5 bars and came out with only 1 left (and the car was off, I'm positive).
- Nav system freezing or rebooting*
- Bluetooth would forget my phone 1-2 times a week*
- Car goes into a "safe mode." Car will go into Neutral and I will not be able to shift it into D or R for about 30 minutes. Sometimes while in this mode, car can not be turned off either. Service writer at one Nissan dealership said he had seen this and it can happen the first time(?) after the update, and by powering the car off and leaving the driver door open for a minute, it will reset it (doesn't work every time, especially if the car won't turn off).
- Sometimes after charging to full, all re-gen "bubbles" are available and car will use them, charging and possibly damaging a fully charged pack.
- Range meter (GOM) will lock onto a number a number (ie 59 or 74) and will not change despite driving 70+ miles and going from 12 bars to 2.
- Car will drop a bar whenever powered off (park car at dropping to 9 bars, check online it reads 8, move car 40 feet to garage, park at 8 bars, check online 7 bars, put back on street, 6 bars.... I've lost 4 bars in less than 150 feet (and again the car was off, I'm positive). It doesn't do it everyday, but when it does, it will do it all day.

That update, for me at least, was actually two. One for the car and one for the Nav. The Nav update went wonky too and they had to re-flash it to fix it. That fixed the Nav and bluetooth issues (marked with the * above).

Since the middle of April, I've gone to three different Nissan Dealerships, all ran tests and said there were no issues (but only one drove the car). But if I bring the car in, in a mode where they can't even get it to turn off, how could they give it back to me and say nothing is wrong? I've been dealing with Nissan corporate, but despite all the promises they've made, they've yet to keep one of them. The last time I took it in, Nissan corporate said they'd call and tell them exactly what they wanted the dealership to do. I arrived, Nissan never called, but tech support called the next day and told them it was user error. They said I was doing something to put it into this mode. I told them I was having ankle surgery the next week and they could keep the car until they fixed it. So they refused to give me a loaner car (even after promising me one all day) and after making me wait 1.5 hours told me they din't know if the shuttle was coming back. Basically they were saying I could walk home on a broken ankle or take my car.

I have asked everyone of the dealerships to re-install the software, but apparently that is not possible.

I'm pretty sure they know what the issue is because (these are in relation to the biggest issue, the unit going into a safe mode for about 30 minutes):

1) I was immediately given a work-around (the door open thing, which does work occasionally)
2) Being told they had seen this with some cars after doing the update on some Leafs (but it was implied that it only happened the first-time [started?] and the door thing fixed it and it never came back for anyone so customers never saw it, or just saw it once).
3) When describing it to Service writers or Nissan Corporate, they finish my sentences or ask very specific closed-ended questions that relate perfectly to the issue.
4) Nobody wanted to even test drive the car, they just ran their diagnostics and telling me it found nothing.

Nissan asked for another chance to fix the car and they picked it up at 10AM 9/13/12. I spoke with a Nissan rep and a Leaf engineer (corporate, not dealership tech) on in the early afternoon and they went over all the times the car had been in and found something from my April visit. They found two codes from April (out of 2.5 pages of codes) related to an interlock? system. The tech also said he wished the dealership would have sent them the codes back then so I wouldn't have deal with this for so long. And now they had something to go on.

Cut to later that afternoon, I got a call back with more questions from the corporate leaf tech. The last question was "how often does it happen." When I told him it was about every three weeks, he straight out said, "well we're not going to be able to recreate that." Basically I was told they don't see anything wrong so there's nothing to repair and they weren't going look any longer. When I chimed in that I had photos and video of these occurrences, the Nissan rep came on and said to give him to this afternoon to come up with something. It's the end of business, he hasn't called and isn't answering his phone.

I got the car back 5 days later, they would not talk to me about it, they just gave it back. The paperwork showed that they had run the diagnostics, unplugged and replugged all the high voltage cables and test drove the car 47 miles. They spent a total of 3 hours doing that, but found nothing wrong. They even went so far as to say that there were no codes from April again. I tried calling Nissan's DTS, but he would not answer his phone nor return my calls.

Nissan finally contacted me and offered a service contract but not to fix the issues, and read me verbatim the text from the dealership. I told her that Nissan's engineer said there were two codes and they needed to be investigated. I told her that I found it ridiculous that when I get the car back the descriptions of what is wrong are completely messed up. It seems no one is taking notes on what I say until later and it's very wrong. I also said I have pictures or videos of it happening, but no one wants to see them (I thought they would help). She offered to follow-up with the leaf engineer. She called me back later saying that he did confirm the codes, but the first tech from April may have re-seated the cables and that's why I hadn't seen that issue since then. I told her that it had happened 5 times since then, so nothing was fixed. She declined to do anything but offer me a service contract. I told here that I wanted them to buy back the car because they are un-willing to fix it and my wife refuses to ride in it for fear of being stranded randomly (we have not used the car since early August, except to go to National Plug-in day) and ended the call.

At this point even if they could fix the car I don't want to own anything with the Nissan name on it. I'm still in the Lemon Law process with the BBB and I am waiting on the next steps from them and I've contacted some people in the media (hopefully they like the Nissan found out he was disabled so they refused him a rental car and shuttle so he'd have to take his car back angle).
 
saintyohann said:
Heard back from someone at Nissan's Dispute Resolution Team. They offered me a free service contract, but won't do anything about my issues.
I've reached the conclusion that Nissan is a shitty company. I thought Toyota was bad for refusing to replace customers' engines that died at 20-30,000 miles..... well Nissan is almost as bad.
 
theaveng said:
saintyohann said:
Heard back from someone at Nissan's Dispute Resolution Team. They offered me a free service contract, but won't do anything about my issues.
I've reached the conclusion that Nissan is a shitty company. I thought Toyota was bad for refusing to replace customers' engines that died at 20-30,000 miles..... well Nissan is almost as bad.
Source about the Toyota engine issues?

Toyota powertrain warranties that cover the engine have been 5 years/60K miles for a long time. Not sure when it started being that length, but it was that way back in the 91 model year, when we got our first Toyota.

When we had a model year 86 GM car, all warranties tended to be shorter and even GM's was 3 years/36K on powertrain, but with a deductible ($100, IIRC).
 
EVDRIVER said:
saintyohann said:
my complaint about the car loosing bars at power off, was answered on the paperwork with (if you park on an incline and then a flat area (or vice versa) the battery readout may gain or lose bars because of a G sensor. Somebody tell me they're kidding, please.
This is known as the "gas tank effect", to simulate an old school gas tank. Just park on flat ground and your capacity will go up. I parked sideways on a steep hill and I got 294 GIDs.
Why on earth would Nissan engineers waste time programming this into the car? The gas tank reading incorrectly on inclines is a flaw, not a feature. They shouldn't mimic that flaw in a battery gauge.
 
theaveng said:
EVDRIVER said:
This is known as the "gas tank effect", to simulate an old school gas tank. Just park on flat ground and your capacity will go up. I parked sideways on a steep hill and I got 294 GIDs.
Why on earth would Nissan engineers waste time programming this into the car? The gas tank reading incorrectly on inclines is a flaw, not a feature. They shouldn't mimic that flaw in a battery gauge.
This is an example of EVDRIVER's infamous humor. You learn not to take anything he posts seriously after you've been here a while.
 
Oh okay. When Toyota built the Prius hybrid they included "forward creep" in the EV-only mode. We early adopters thought that was odd because an electric car really shouldn't move unless you press the pedal. Also there's the story of GM who built an accurate gas gauge where each bar was equal, instead of the standard setting where the top drops slower than the bottom end (because of the shape of the tank). Customers complained that the tank emptied too fast. So GM changed the programming back to the Inaccurate gauge. (Therefore I thought maybe Nissan was doing something similar mimicing a gas tank on the battery gauge.)
cwerdna said:
Toyota powertrain warranties that cover the engine have been 5 years/60K miles for a long time.
Yes and Toyota refused to honor the 5/60000 warranty when engines started dying circa 1999. The customers were left to fix cars themselves! The case is well-documented all over the internet, including a class action lawsuit that forced Toyota to refund money back to customers (the ones that spent $5000-6000 on a new engine at only 20-30,000 miles). The court found Toyota to be delinquent in not providing free replacements.

http://www.toyoland.com/sludge.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ehow.com/about_5954881_toyota-camry-sludge-engine-problems.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (about the lawsuit)
Actual customer stories: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html?page=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
theaveng said:
Oh okay. When Toyota built the Prius hybrid they included "forward creep" in the EV-only mode.
...
cwerdna said:
Toyota powertrain warranties that cover the engine have been 5 years/60K miles for a long time.
Yes and Toyota refused to honor the 5/60000 warranty when engines started dying circa 1999. The customers were left to fix cars themselves! The case is well-documented all over the internet, including a class action lawsuit that forced Toyota to refund money back to customers (the ones that spent $5000-6000 on a new engine at only 20-30,000 miles). The court found Toyota to be delinquent in not providing free replacements.

http://www.toyoland.com/sludge.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ehow.com/about_5954881_toyota-camry-sludge-engine-problems.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (about the lawsuit)
Actual customer stories: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html?page=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2003-05-15/html/03-12051.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; discusses the forward creep ratonale.

Ok. Yes, I've heard of the infamous Toyota oil sludging issue. I figured you were referring to that. FWIW, I usually am pretty dismissive of Consumer Affairs. To quote someone on Priuschat:
Please don't mention Consumer Affairs. They're a bunch of ambulance chasing lawyers. If you believed them, every consumer item on the planet was evil and out to get you
 
I have been trying to keep everything together into one big letter for the BBB hearing, but now I want to send it reporters. It seems that is the only way to get Nissan's attention.
You have the patience of a saint. I would have gone absolutely ballistic by now. Especially after the crap they pulled with the BBB.

Publicizing this is a magnificent idea. Not only your local TV station, but every news media outlet who will listen to you.

Wish I'd found this forum before I leased my LEAF. I've only had it a few weeks and anticipate no real trouble because I live in western WA state, but after evenings spent reading this and the supposedly "open" letter thread I no longer trust anyone associated with Nissan.

I'm waiting to read of a satisfying resolution in your case. And hoping you eventually can get a good nights' sleep.
 
cwerdna said:
Ok. Yes, I've heard of the infamous Toyota oil sludging issue. I figured you were referring to that. FWIW, I usually am pretty dismissive of Consumer Affairs.
You can dismiss C.A. if you want but I've never been contacted by a lawyer even when I specifically ASK the website to send me on.

Also you can't dismiss the ~1 million customers who suffered premature engine death & the fact Toyota refused to honor the engine replacement warranty (even customers has dealer records showing regular oil maintenance). Nor can you ignore the massive lawsuit that decided against Toyota and forced them to honor the warranty advertised. ANY company whether it's Honda or Apple or GM or whatever brand-you-feel-fanboy-love-for, which refuses to honor the warranty advertised and leaves customers with no fix for nearly a decade, is a company to avoid.

Toyota acted poorly. I will not be buying a Toyota product as long as the current management, which left these poor customers with broken cars, is in charge. That was a really cold-hearted thing to do to a bunch of innocent people. F toyota up the ads. And the same for everyone who would say, "Toyota did nothing wrong and those 1 million customers deserved to be screwed." I can't imagine being such a cold-hearted, unsympathic punk.
 
theaveng said:
cwerdna said:
Ok. Yes, I've heard of the infamous Toyota oil sludging issue. I figured you were referring to that. FWIW, I usually am pretty dismissive of Consumer Affairs.
Also you can't dismiss the ~1 million customers who suffered premature engine death & the fact Toyota refused to honor the engine replacement warranty (even customers has dealer records showing regular oil maintenance). Nor can you ignore the massive lawsuit that decided against Toyota and forced them to honor the warranty advertised. ANY company whether it's Honda or Apple or GM or whatever brand-you-feel-fanboy-love-for, which refuses to honor the warranty advertised and leaves customers with no fix for nearly a decade, is a company to avoid.

Toyota acted poorly. I will not be buying a Toyota product as long as the current management, which left these poor customers with broken cars, is in charge. That was a really cold-hearted thing to do to a bunch of innocent people. F toyota up the ads. And the same for everyone who would say, "Toyota did nothing wrong and those 1 million customers deserved to be screwed." I can't imagine being such a cold-hearted, unsympathic punk.
Personally, I know of 0 Toyota/Lexus owners who've ever had any issues w/oil sludging, including some who have/had cars in that model year range and the affected engines. I know plenty of folks who own Toyotas and Lexuses.

That said, source for your bolded statement? Just because there were millions of vehicles sold in the affected class and potentially could have the problem doesn't mean 1 million of them had engine death AND Toyota refused to honor the engine warranty. The 1 million number sounds like a complete exaggeration to me.

And, if the problem is really as widespread as you claim, then I'd expect to see horrible engine Consumer Reports reliability results on those cars, during that model year range. It only takes a few % of problem reports in a particular system to make it show up as worse than average in reliability. That hasn't happened. Unfortunately CR's site seems down right now but from http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/automobiles/04SLUDGE.html?pagewanted=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Consumer Reports magazine has said “the problem rate as reflected in our reliability data is very low.”
and from http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/8-general-discussion/2774-toyota-engines-oil-sludge-wall-st-journal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David Champion, director of automobile testing at Consumer Reports, says
his organization's data don't show oil sludging to be a widespread issue
for Toyota . "Toyota engines are pretty reliable," Mr. Champion says.
I do agree that from the limited amount I know, prior to the class action lawsuit settlement, it seems Toyota treated their customers pretty poorly on this issue. If I were in their shoes and had to fork over that much $, I'd probably be pretty pissed and not want to buy another Toyota.

It seems that as a result of all this, Toyota's gotten pretty paranoid about making sure people change their oil often. In my 06 Prius, there's a maintenance reminder light that automatically comes on every 5K miles since last reset. The oil change interval on my car is 6 months/5K miles. Current Priuses have 10K mile OCIs w/required synthetic and also have a maintenance reminder "dummy light".
 
The BBB "Better Business Bureau" is a membership organization - businesses join the BBB. They have a fantastic marketing campaign that lulls consumers into believing that the BBB is there to ensure consumers are treated well. BBB members are the companies that are being "rated" (those company dues fund the operations of the BBB)!!
 
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