Chademo to CCS

[snowberry]

In July 2020 Nissan announced no more Chademo and it would use CCS for quick charging. I bought a 2022 Leaf without knowing this and my 2022 has Chademo. Is there any chance Nissan will convert an existing Chademo port to a CCS port?

 

[cwerdna]

I'm not sure what announcement you read/heard. Can you point us to it?

We know that for Ariya, Nissan announced US (likely North America) and Europe would be CCS (CCS1 for NA and CCS2 for Europe). It'd remain CHAdeMO for Japan.

I'm not aware of any announcement about CCS as it pertains to Leaf nor "no more Chademo" nor "it would use CCS for quick charging" for their EVs, in general. See above about what they announced for Ariya.

Is there any chance Nissan will convert an existing Chademo port to a CCS port?

Odds are pretty low.

Have you checked Plugshare for CHAdeMO plugs you along routes of where you plan to go?

For any future folks considering BEVs, about 2/3 of the down https://thedriven.io/2018/12/10/what-is-chademo-charging/ are the non-Tesla plugs in use around the world. In the US, for consumer BEV/PHEV DC FCing, we have:
- CHAdeMO
- CCS1 aka Combo1 flavor of CCS aka SAE Combo aka J1772 CCS
- Tesla's proprietary North America connector (they call it NACS now) for L1 AC, L2 AC and DC FCing (e.g. Supercharger + with adapters, CCS1 (supporting hardware also needed on the car side) and CHAdeMO).

 

[snowberry]

I saw the July 16, 2020 GreenCar Reports story. Yes it was about the Ariya, but it in reality it doomed Chademo in the USA. I did a road trip in the leaf in August 2022 and ran into many issues. I never got more than 40kw, I found a number of locations where there were 6 charging stations and all were CCS and 1 had both, but if another car was using the CCS, the Chademo was unavailable. To pretend that Nissan does not owe Leaf owners more is a major marketing mistake. I am considering replacing the Leaf just to get CCS.

 

[cwerdna]

I did a road trip in the leaf in August 2022 and ran into many issues. I never got more than 40kw,

Do you have a Plus or non-Plus Leaf? If it's a non-Plus, that's not surprising.

I found a number of locations where there were 6 charging stations and all were CCS and 1 had both, but if another car was using the CCS, the Chademo was unavailable.

You can blame CHAdeMO saboteur VW-owned Electrify America for that. Off the top of my head, they're the only non-Tesla and non-Rivian DC FC provider doing that across their network in the US. As part of their penance for dieselgate, they got allowed to be not standards neutral, do the bare minimum for CHAdeMO and further their business interests (e.g. VW, Audi and Porsche) by causing the US market to shift to CCS since the handles they install are 150 and 350 kW for CCS vs. only a single 50 kW CHAdeMO. https://www.plugshare.com/location/344062 is probably the worst I've seen with 27 CCS handles and 1 CHAdeMO. The site's being redone and the next gen stations have only 1 handle each. So, the ratio will probably become 14 to 1.

Prior to the above, as I posted at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=615261#p615261, another site had a 19:1 ratio.

For new sites outside CA, in theory, they aren't installing any CHAdeMO: https://insideevs.com/news/522882/electrify-america-ends-chademo-installations/.

Up until recently, most other DC FC providers in the US were installing an equal ratio of CCS1 vs. CHAdeMO handles at their site. Some newer EVgo sites have slightly fewer CHAdeMO handles than CCS ones though.

You should see some of the hatred on chevybolt.org and Bolt groups for CHAdeMO. (shrug... sigh...)

To pretend that Nissan does not owe Leaf owners more is a major marketing mistake.

Again, blame VW-owned Electrify America. If they installed an equal or near equal ratio of plugs and tried just as hard to have high powered CHAdeMO as CCS, I suspect the market situation in the US might be different.

I've posted about this before like at the below:
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=623224#p623224
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=627582#p627582

I saw the July 16, 2020 GreenCar Reports story. Yes it was about the Ariya, but it in reality it doomed Chademo in the USA.

Disagree. EA has been up to their shenanigans (described already) well before July 2020 and any Nissan announcement about Ariya's charging inlets.

Other than Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, nobody has been shipping any new BEVs/PHEVs in the US with native CHAdeMO support for years.

I had to dig to find what you read. I guess it's https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128891_nissan-s-move-to-ccs-fast-charging-makes-chademo-a-legacy-standard. It does say:

The format change won’t mean anything immediately for the Leaf, which is likely to be sold in its present form for a couple of years or more. Nissan has made clear that the Ariya doesn’t replace the Leaf, and that a next-generation Leaf is at least on the drawing board. To speculate for a moment, if the Ariya is the technology flagship, there’s still space for the Leaf to be the efficiency and sustainability leader.

It would've been super easy to look for pictures, the manual or the Leaf itself to confirm a '22 Leaf didn't have CCS. We even talked about '23 Leaf having CHAdeMO like at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=620677#p620677.

I can't speak to your other "many issues". Did you check Plugshare first? Did you avoid using credit card readers?

 

[WetEV]

You can blame CHAdeMO saboteur VW-owned Electrify America for that. Off the top of my head, they're the only non-Tesla and non-Rivian DC FC provider doing that across their network in the US. As part of their penance for dieselgate, they got allowed to be not standards neutral, do the bare minimum for CHAdeMO and further their business interests (e.g. VW, Audi and Porsche) by causing the US market to shift to CCS since the handles they install are 150 and 350 kW for CCS vs. only a single 50 kW CHAdeMO.

Blame BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Rivian, Tesla, Mahindra, Tata Motors and the Volkswagen Group. Oh, and the EU.

The switch to CCS in the US and Europe was made when every US and European manufacturer signed up back in 2011 and 2012. There were four fast charging standards for a while, Chademo, CCS (type 1 and type 2), Tesla, and GB/T (China). Chademo was limited to Japan, and while cars were sold outside Japan for a while, EU now mandates CCS for every new model. Even Tesla.

Chademo and GB/T are obsolete, being replaced with ChaoJi. I doubt if there will be any Chaoji cars imported in volume to the USA. No native charging network. No point building an extra charging network. Chademo and GB/T cars can not use ChaoJi plugs.

Any new LEAF will need to support CCS in the EU, so seems likely to be CCS in North America as well.

 

[cwerdna]

You can blame CHAdeMO saboteur VW-owned Electrify America for that. Off the top of my head, they're the only non-Tesla and non-Rivian DC FC provider doing that across their network in the US. As part of their penance for dieselgate, they got allowed to be not standards neutral, do the bare minimum for CHAdeMO and further their business interests (e.g. VW, Audi and Porsche) by causing the US market to shift to CCS since the handles they install are 150 and 350 kW for CCS vs. only a single 50 kW CHAdeMO.

Blame BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Rivian, Tesla, Mahindra, Tata Motors and the Volkswagen Group. Oh, and the EU.

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351 and https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8968#p200825 were basically true in 2012.

Leaf, i-MiEV and Soul EV could come with CHAdeMO inlet. Leaf began shipping Dec 2010. First CCS car in the US was the Spark EV. Ones that could optionally have it arrived in Dec 2013 (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087390_first-car-sold-with-ccs-fast-charging-now-delayed-to-december). Then that was followed by CCS optional BMW i3 then CCS standard (later optional) VW e-Golf. Spark EV was a small quantity compliance car. E-Golf for the US was a CARB compliance car (yes, it sold in larger quantities in Europe). BMW was not particularly serious about BEVs in the US for many years.

Mazda, FCA has yet to ship a single CCS or DC FCable BEV (or even PHEV) in the US. Daimler/Mercedes had nothing DC FCable in the US until recently. B-Class ED had no DC FC inlet. MG, Renault, Mahindra, Tata (not under that brand) don't sell BEVs or at all in the US. Polestar is controlled by Volvo. They had no BEVs shipping in the US until recently. Groupe PSA had nothing shipping in the US at all but now they've merged w/FCA but see above re: FCA.

Honda no longer ships any BEVs in the US. Clarity BEV was a lease-only low range (~89 mile) CA compliance car that was discontinued a few years ago. The Fit EV was another lease-only compliance car before it and had no DC FC inlet. JDM version had CHAdeMO.

For Ford, gen 2 Focus Electric was could be CCS charged. It sold in TINY quantities until it was discontinued, leaving Ford with no US BEVs for years. Gen 1 couldn't be DC FCed.

OP can look at https://insideevs.com/news/344007/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard-historical-charts/ and https://insideevs.com/news/343998/monthly-plug-in-ev-sales-scorecard/, keeping in mind many of the vehicles in the charts were PHEVs and had no DC FC inlets.

As I said, if EA tried just as hard with CHAdeMO and didn't stack the deck, the US DC FC situation might look different. What if EA put on 5 to 27 150 or 350 kW CHAdeMO at each site and a single 50 kW CCS1? Would everyone else still shift to CCS in the US? After all, VW was putting on CHAdeMO inlets on Japanese market e-Golfs. Mercedes and BMW were putting on CHAdeMO on their Japanese market EVs too.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

So, may I again offer a different view of the same landscspe. I am not doubting the demise of Chademo in the long term, in the immediate, Chademo has never been stronger.

Yes Chademo installs are falling behind ccs and Tesla. Yes power output is limited generally to 100KW. (The Aryia barely ever breaks that barrier funny enough).

But...the number of available Chademos today is the highest it has even been in the US. Over 120 new stations appeared in Jan 23 alone. In my trips from Chicago through Iowa, there were only 2 lonely Chademo handles (EA only, one of which was broken) in June 2019 in my first trip. In Jan 23, I passed literally well over 4 dozen (handles, most stations having 2 or more handles). That is a huge huge increase. Not saying it's as good as vvs or Tesla coverage, just saying it's an enormous change in 4 year.

So look at the bright side.

 

[Toby]

In the BC Chademo handles are still being installed. However, if we were to drive south into Washington State we would probably take our ICE.

 

[cwerdna]

To continue on that list, Jaguar sells a puny # of BEVs in the US. At the time 1st US CCS car came on the market, GM sold a puny # of BEVs in the US, the compliance car Spark EV. Bolt sales did eventually take off but when Bolt hit stop sale around late Aug 2021 due to recall, they sold virtually no BEVs in the US for awhile.

https://insideevs.com/news/558804/gm-delivered-26-evs-2021q4/
https://electrek.co/2022/04/01/gm-delivered-only-457-electric-vehicles-last-quarter-more-are-coming/
https://insideevs.com/news/578028/chevrolet-bolt-ev-euv-production-resumed/

(New and used) Bolts that had recalled batteries couldn't be sold by GM dealers until the recalls were remedied.

Until recently, HyunKia's BEVs in the US have been CARB compliance cars only and didn't sell in the US in large numbers. Tesla has never shipped a native CCS1 vehicle in the US w/CCS inlet.

Rivian shipped no consumer BEVs in the US until late 2021.

Prior to Tesla moving to CCS2 in Europe, earlier ones had a modified Mennekes Type 2 inlet with AFAIK deeper pins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvjNNh1FnEk starting at ~0:50 shows both plugs. They don't use what Tesla calls "NACS" now (proprietary connector for NA, Japan and South Korea) in Europe.

 

[WetEV]

Blame BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Rivian, Tesla, Mahindra, Tata Motors and the Volkswagen Group. Oh, and the EU.

As I said, if EA tried just as hard with CHAdeMO and didn't stack the deck, the US DC FC situation might look different. What if EA put on 5 to 27 150 or 350 kW CHAdeMO at each site and a single 50 kW CCS1? Would everyone else still shift to CCS in the US? After all, VW was putting on CHAdeMO inlets on Japanese market e-Golfs. Mercedes and BMW were putting on CHAdeMO on their Japanese market EVs too.

If EA and VW and Ford and GM and Kia and Hyundai and ... would have tried just as hard with Chademo, it might have been different. No cars, no point. Current state of the market.


https://electrek.co/2022/10/18/us-electric-vehicle-sales-by-maker-and-ev-model-through-q3-2022/

If Elon wasn't such a d!ck, it might have been different. Ford and perhaps others were considering Supercharger aka NACS back in 2012.

Either Elon will win and everyone will drive Tesla's if Elon approves of their politics, or Elon will lose and Tesla will switch to CCS.


350 kW or 400 kW Chademo 2.0 doesn't exist, in practice at least. Was proposed, is specified, is true, but as far as I know, never implemented. Not a single 1000 V battery car made. While there are 1000 V capable chargers than can have Chademo plugs, they are limited to 200 Amps or 200 kW, and 80 kW with real 400 V cars. Can any Chademo car take 200 kW?

Replaced with CHAdeMO 3.0: ChaoJi which does not allow the use of adapters to charge older Chademo vehicles. Sorry, the LEAF is obsolete. Still very usable, and likely usable for a decade or more, but still obsolete.

ChaoJi in China

https://tekdeeps.com/xpeng-introduced-a-480kw-electric-car-fast-charger-200-km-in-5-minutes/



Did any non-Japanese car maker use Chademo for US models?

Xpeng (Chinese) made a car in 2017 for EU using Chademo. I don't know how many were sold, hundreds? That's close as well. Chademo is being allowed to die a slow death in Europe as well. Was a proposal to phase out a few years ago.


If EA wanted to support future cars in the USA, why would it pick Chademo? Why not CCS? If designing a car or charging network for China or Japan, wouldn't you use ChaoJi, why pick Chademo? If designing a car for Europe, wouldn't you use CCS? No new non-CCS cars allowed, so is moot question.

 

[cwerdna]

Did any non-Japanese car maker use Chademo for US models?

Yes, Kia Soul EV gen 1 was CHAdeMO. Gen 2 never came to the US (was CCS1 for Canada).

https://web.archive.org/web/20150510150523/http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter also came out in the US in Q2 2015.

Replaced with CHAdeMO 3.0: ChaoJi which does not allow the use of adapters to charge older Chademo vehicles. Sorry, the LEAF is obsolete. Still very usable, and likely usable for a decade or more, but still obsolete.

Is that correct? No adapters? https://www.chademo.com/technology/high-power still says
"BACKWARD COMPATIBLE

Ensuring backward compatibility of ChaoJi EVs with existing GB/T, CHAdeMO (and possibly CCS) chargers with simple adapters, ChaoJi allows charging infrastructure owners to plan the optimal transition with the lowest costs."

 

[WetEV]

Yes, Kia Soul EV gen 1 was CHAdeMO. Gen 2 never came to the US (was CCS1 for Canada).

Ah, yes, and I've even seen one charging. You are correct. Thanks.

Replaced with CHAdeMO 3.0: ChaoJi which does not allow the use of adapters to charge older Chademo vehicles. Sorry, the LEAF is obsolete. Still very usable, and likely usable for a decade or more, but still obsolete.

Is that correct? No adapters? https://www.chademo.com/technology/high-power still says
"BACKWARD COMPATIBLE

Ensuring backward compatibility of ChaoJi EVs with existing GB/T, CHAdeMO (and possibly CCS) chargers with simple adapters, ChaoJi allows charging infrastructure owners to plan the optimal transition with the lowest costs."

As far as I understand, ChaoJi EVs can connect with older chargers, but older EVs can't connect to ChaoJi chargers.