EVSE Installation, Info and Cost Comparison Thread

[garygid]

Almost any "real" use would likely get into the 2nd VERY EXPENSIVE level.

 

[mwalsh]

Almost any "real" use would likely get into the 2nd VERY EXPENSIVE level.

Oops. Amended my post to say ONCE WE'VE ADDED THE PV SYSTEM.

 

[mathewbeall]

This below is EXACTLY correct. Almost all tax credits are wiped out if you fall into the AMT category. Most people fail to mention that... I bought a Honda Civic GX 4 years ago and was really counting on the $4k tax credit only to find out that that didn't apply to AMT people...

Totally sucks..

Matt

I hope this is on topic. I didn't want to start a new thread, but wanted to remind everyone about the AMT limitation. I realize that there has been some discussion of this along with discussion of the $7500 vehicle credit, which is handled differently.

It appears to me that the Federal 50% EVSE tax credit is eliminated completely if you owe even $1 of Alternative Minimum Tax.

From my amateur reading of IRS form 8911 on Nissan's site: http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/pdf/incentives/nissan-leaf-incentive-56.pdf line 22 reads that if you subtract the Tentative Minimum Tax from the Regular Tax and the result is zero or less, "stop here, do not file this form" unless you are filing as a business.

To me, that means "sorry, you don't get ANY of this credit if your tentative minimum tax equals or exceeds your regular tax".

I paid about $1,000 of AMT in 2009 and I'll probably pay some in 2010, so I'm assuming that I'm s**t out of luck for this credit. That's important for me to know as I evaluate the AV quote for the EVSE install that I expect in a few days. I ran into a similar limitation for the 2007 tax year, when I installed solar PV and bought a Prius. I didn't pay AMT in that year, but my $2,000 federal solar PV credit eliminated my ability to take the $750 hybrid car credit because of the affect of subtracting the $2,000 credit and how that affected the tentative minimum tax calculation.

AMT often affects certain taxpayers in high tax states like California, where you are pushed into the AMT by deducting the high state income taxes. So yes, we in CA are in the early roll out markets, but there are drawbacks.

 

[Azrich]

What is the "AMT category" or "AMT people"?

Thanks.

 

[Jimmydreams]

What is the "AMT category" or "AMT people"?

Thanks.

"Alternative Minimum Tax" = you make too much $$, the Gov't wants more of it.
:evil:

 

[Boomer23]

Rich, it's an IRS tax regulation called Alternative Minimum Tax. Originally designed to make sure that wealthy taxpayers paid at least some tax, it is a second tax system and the problem is that it wasn't indexed for inflation. So rather than catch only the rich, it now catches middle class taxpayers as well. Certain deductible items, including state taxes, make it more likely that you'll pay the AMT. If you make enough income and you have any of these deductible items, you must do the calculation to see if you need to pay the AMT. In the AMT calculation, certain deductions and tax credits are disallowed. The EVSE home tax credit appears to be one that is not allowed to be taken if you must pay any AMT.

 

[DeaneG]

I thought I heard that lawmakers passed a modification a year or two back so that AMT no longer eliminated the usefulness of the credits. I was just told by a solar installer that AMT is no problem for PV credit.

 

[Rat]

When you get your EVSE installation quote, please indicate the distance from your breaker box to the charger, as well as any aspects that you know to be unusual or affecting cost. My assessment guy said the distance from my box to the charger was the greatest one he had seen and my job was the hardest of the first 7 he's done. I got the impression that was going to make mine more expensive. I would like to see if the cost correlates to distance of the wiring/conduit run. At this point I'm rather hoping for a standard $2200 one-size-fits-all price.

 

[mwalsh]

My assessment guy said the distance from my box to the charger was the greatest one he had seen and my job was the hardest of the first 7 he's done. I got the impression that was going to make mine more expensive. I would like to see if the cost correlates to distance of the wiring/conduit run. At this point I'm rather hoping for a standard $2200 one-size-fits-all price.

My assessor said that anything under 30' (linear?) from the service panel is the basic install. Over 30'....well, I wouldn't be optimistic of the $2200, but I think I would want a darn good accounting of why it's more expensive.

 

[garygid]

Yes, my friend's inspector mentioned that the 24 inch run was under the 30-foot max for a "standard" install.

Possibly, even if we were to add the breaker and the 2 feet of wiring, it would still be a "standard" install?

 

[mwalsh]

Yes, my friend's inspector mentioned that the 24 inch run was under the 30-foot max for a "standard" install.

Possibly, even if we were to add the breaker and the 2 feet of wiring, it would still be a "standard" install?

From what I understood by eavesdropping on what my guy was telling his guy under instruction, conditions governing basic install were:

Under 30' linear from the panel
Space in the service panel for the two new breakers (and I think I heard the new breakers were included in the basic price)
Panel not overloaded by the new breakers

 

[EVDRIVER]

I get that they have a guideline for standard but if there is work that they would have had to do but will not be doing the price should be lower, in addition I would like them to explain $1200 or more in labor for a 1.5 hour install with a 1.5 hour follow up. Wen you look at some of the documents that show multiple hours of labor that makes sense. So if it takes them more time then you get charged extra but if it takes them far less time then they still bill the same. They should just say the EVSE is $1400 not $700 because electricians usually don't make $300 plus per hour. If enough people push back on this they will need to adjust their bids, this is very typical in contracting, people accept the price because they don;t think the price can be adjusted because of sales "excuses" or policies. If people say no the price will go down as long as they are still making a decent profit and they are if they only are there 1-2 hours and 4 total. This is sales tactic 101, the installer may get a "set" amount for what was outlined as standard and if it takes them 8 hours total they make less and if it's 4 hours they make more. This is very common is this type of arrangement. If mine comes back at $1200 in labor for screwing a box on the wall and following up on the permitI will certainly call Nissan or EV to explain the labor rate. This will go on as long as AV can get away with a fixed bid.

Everyone deserves to make a fair profit and in my business our bids are adjusted down for easy installs and when the client is willing to ask, if they want to pay more that is fine too. I would not turn away a simple install at less money if there is still a profit because the more difficult one at the standard price can end up a nightmare and be less profitable in the long run. I'm laughing at these numbers because I work with electricians daily and specify complex residential wiring and this is a gravy train for SOME installations. Someone gets an allowance for a certain number of labor hours for a standard install and the get paid for ALL the materials even if they are not used or NIssan/AV is pocketing the difference, someone is. At the very least they should deduct for unused materials because those are hard costs.

 

[mwalsh]

How much is permitting? I haven't heard you guys mention that much. Don't forget to deduct that from your electrician's "salary".

 

[mitch672]

How much is permitting? I haven't heard you guys mention that much. Don't forget to deduct that from your electrician's "salary".

in most places a permit is in the $85 to $150 range. but, the electrician has to:

A) file for the permit and get it
B) buy the stock for your job. Wire and conduit they usually have, but there are many different panel mfrs, they probably need to buy the breaker, at a supply house..
C) actually install the EVSE to local code.
D) make a second trip to meet the inspector and get a sign off, after the work is done

that is 2 more trips than "just installing the EVSE". some places the permit can be done online, cutting out 1 trip, in most cases the electrician will need to make a second trip to meet the inspector for sign off,

time = money

and yes, the install price is high, they need to entice electricians to want to do this work, and making a nice profit is what most respond to. In time, like everything else it will be a commodity and the install and cost of the EVSE will come down.

 

[garygid]

The "standard" install, in my friend's case, also appeared to cover replacing four 15/20 amp breakers with two "double" breakers to free up room for the one new dual-slot 40-amp "240v" EV breaker.

But, we have not seen the quote yet.

 

[garygid]

The one bid we have seen, listed just $50 for the permit fee.

In some cases, the filing is done on-line (enter address, ... done) and the "standard install" permit is just printed out, with no visit to "city hall" required.

Also, there is usually not a requirement for the electrician to be there for the "city" inspection.

In the case of my 7 kW PV install, only the city inspector and I were there.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The one bid we have seen, listed just $50 for the permit fee.

In some cases, the filing is done on-line (enter address, ... done) and the "standard install" permit is just printed out, with no visit to "city hall" required.

Also, there is usually not a requirement for the electrician to be there for the "city" inspection.

In the case of my 7 kW PV install, only the city inspector and I were there.

Yes, even garage doors require a permit but it is not inspected. The permit process should be easier and my solar was done the same way. If they insist on charging me a standard install then they can run a second conduit (besides mine) themselves and I will have a back up, perhaps that will change their mind when they need to remove the sheer wall again and do in and out of many other obstacles

 

[DeaneG]

My inspector (the principal of his company) mentioned that they were not being paid for the site evals, and were doing them on speculation that they will get the installation income. So that could be three site visits for one install, if the job does require a city inspection.

 

[garygid]

Makes one wonder who is getting the non-refundable $100.
Did the on-line credit-card billing go to Nissan, or AeroVironment?

Interesting to see his reaction if you told him about your $100 payment "for the inspection and estimate". Call him, tell him, and report his reaction?

If a lot of us reject the bid (probably most will "accept" it), and the "AV-approved contractors" get little business, maybe AV and Nissan will begin to understand how unreasonable expensive fixed installations are.

 

[mwalsh]

Makes one wonder who is getting the non-refundable $100.
Did the on-line credit-card billing go to Nissan, or AeroVironment?

I hear that it went to AV...the electrical contractors have gotten nothing, yet.