EVSE Installation, Info and Cost Comparison Thread

[LEAFer]

How much different is 1996 to 2010 when it comes to "what counts" ? I expect the signalling from the "old" CC TS units (for sale today!) to be able to still charge a 2010+ vehicle. Just need a J1772 connector at the end of the cable.

(When you say "adapter kits" I get the feeling you're not talking about the CC TS line of products.)

 

[muus]

I see the AV EVSE as potentially obsolete for some buyers in the near future and a model S and other vehicles still interest me. Why pay $1100 after deductions to only get 3.3kw of charging, I predict that this ends up being one of the biggest Leaf issues/mistakes after the release and a big point of contention and resale value for those that buy gen1 vehicles once some users get miles under their belts. If Nissan offers a pack upgrade then gen 1 buyers are even worse off with such a small charger.

I believe that EVDRIVER has it wrong. From what I've read so far, the AV EVSE is being installed on a 40 amp circuit therefore should be able to supply roughly 7.6 kW. The EVSE is NOT a charger but simply a device that tells the car how much current is available. If I understand correctly, the J1772 standard (for Level 2) specifies that a pilot signal is used to indicate the available current in multiples of 8. So on a 20 amp circuit, there is 16 amps available, on a 40 amp circuit, 32 amps available and so on up to a max of 80 amps on a 100 amp circuit. The limiting factor on the Leaf is the on board charger which is only capable of 3.3 kW (roughly 14 amps). Nissan has already said they plan on having 6.6 kW chargers later on in the production. I'm guessing Nissan already has a contract with a supplier for X amount of 3.3 kW chargers and once that contract is up, they will switch to 6.6 kW chargers.

As many have speculated, eventually you will be able to buy an EVSE off the shelf and have it installed yourself. With time, prices will come down as there isn't much to an EVSE. I just hope someone will produce an EVSE that will be able to take full advantage of the J1772 spec (up to 80 amps). I'm sure that with time, electric cars will have more and more powerful on-board chargers (Tesla already comes with a 70 amp on board charger). If the Leaf could charge at 80 amps, it would charge to 80% in one hour.

http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10005601/designer-ev-chargers-to-be-sold-in-big-box-stores/

 

[AndyH]

The EVSE is NOT a charger but simply a device that tells the car how much current is available. If I understand correctly, the J1772 standard (for Level 2) specifies that a pilot signal is used to indicate the available current in multiples of 8. So on a 20 amp circuit, there is 16 amps available, on a 40 amp circuit, 24 amps available and so on up to a max of 80 amps on a 100 amp circuit.

I have a hard-copy of the Jan 2010 J1772 document and haven't seen anything there that suggests that there's a 'multiples of 8' limitation. The overall spec shows a continuous ratio of pilot signal to available current from 8A thru the 80A upper limit.

That being said, I virtually 'sat in' on the June J1772 task force meeting http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=640 and there was one comment by an industry rep that some EVSE-makers might configure their EVSE for a number of specific current options rather than providing a continuous range of options that more closely match the J1772 spec.

While 'linear' and 'stepped' current settings are both options, I have no idea who may be choosing which option or some combination. But there doesn't appear to be anything in the spec that 'requires' a 'multiple of 8' or other limit on current settings.

 

[LEAFer]

A couple of comments in response to muus and Andy.

The 7.6kW muus mentions is really 7.2kW, but only because the J1772 connector is currently UL listed at 30amps, so the 80%*40A=32A is probably NOT what the AV installed will limit the EVSE to. Instead the pilot signal limit will be (my guess) set to 30A. (One of the early assessment customers could confirm this ...)

(Side note: muus incorrectly states 24A available on 40A circuit; that should read 32A.)

As to the "rule of 8" ... I think it's pretty much a convenience factor ... or "reality" factor. The multiples of eight is really more a "multiples of 10" thing, due to the fact that breakers come in multiples of 10 (so 80% * 10 = apparent multiples of 8). (There are a few strange exceptions to the 10A increments on breakers -- worth ignoring here.)

 

[AndyH]

I think it's important to remember that the J1772 connectors must, by definition, be capable of the full 80A continuous - and is likely designed for a very healthy 'ultimate' capacity above that.

That being said, there ARE a couple of different EVSE devices that are tailored from the start for a single current rating. This means that the pilot signal is fixed and the cord to the car is sized for the current to be delivered and not the 80A max. The entire EVSE is UL evaluated as a whole - so a unit designed for a 20A service/16A max current can be UL approved for only that limit.

Someone in another thread posted that we'll likely only see a 3.3kW charger in the near term from imported EVs. If that's true, I can absolutely understand why an EVSE manufacturer would design a unit for a 20A circuit and not design for a 100A connection.

 

[Rat]

It's been 8 days since my assessment and still no quote/estimate. I was told at the time of the assessment that it would be two to three business days. It seems it is taking longer. I am in no rush, though. I would rather they get it right.

 

[LEAFer]

I would rather they get it right.

How hard is it to get a few numbers to correctly add to $2,200 :lol: (sorry, could not resist!)

 

[evnow]

I would rather they get it right.

How hard is it to get a few numbers to correctly add to $2,200 :lol: (sorry, could not resist!)

May be there is some rethinking ? Nissan/AV now know - almost every quote will now be posted online and debated. Not something they would have thought about ...

 

[pgrovetom]

Just as a data point in the EVSE discussion:

I just bought a ZERO S Electric Motorcycle. The EVSE is a standard 120V Electric chord identical to the one used for PCs. The Motorcycle has a female connector hidden behind a plate that is pulled out and plugged directly into the "PC like" power chord into a garage GFCI circuit. A unique 20A circuit is recommended but not required by the manual. The J1772 folks have "standardized" this thing to death driven by whoever wrote the NEC section 625 which they were compelled to follow. That seems to have given the suppliers an opportunity to squeeze the price due the the "apparent" complexity. Given the administration is putting so much and appropriate loans and investment in EV related developments ( Li batteries and loans to Nissan and Tesla etc..), some pressure should be applied no the "kill the EV" yet again due to the overly expensive EVSE situation. Just my opinion as I would hate to see "normal" people shocked by paying 10% of a whole car by the extension chord.

 

[Boomer23]

It's been 8 days since my assessment and still no quote/estimate. I was told at the time of the assessment that it would be two to three business days. It seems it is taking longer. I am in no rush, though. I would rather they get it right.

Get ready for a wait. I'm 17 days out from my assessment visit. Someone at AV told me to expect it last week or, if not, to call them back. She said that Nissan is reviewing all of the first ones. Yada, yada.

 

[Rat]

One advantage of being on this forum that I hadn't considered until now is that Nissan and AV should know (if they care to read places like this) that their quote to me will be publicized to the world, and if it is substantially higher than $2200, that could affect the decisions of others on whether to install the EVSE, or even whether to buy the Leaf. If my installation is more expensive than others, because of the long distance between panel and garage, then I hope they consider me a "loss leader" in order to stay within the $2200 normal range.

 

[garygid]

The lowest and highest bids reported so far (approx., from memory):

High: approx. $2400
(was $2434.45, including "permit and processing $300.00")

Low: approx. $2190
(was $2184.xx, including permit $50.00)

Only two posted bids so far?

 

[cinmar]

Had my EVSE assessment on Friday, 7/16, by AV's contractor. Not too many surprises. We already knew we'd likely have to upgrade our 100 amp panel on our 80+ yr. old house to 200 amps -- not generally because the size of the panel, but because it's very old and replacing the ancient breakers takes detective work. The panel is the furthest spot away from our garage, so we figured a way to route the wiring around the back of the house in the ground. I told the contractor we'd likely do the digging part ourselves. I don't want random people trampling my flower beds.

I also let him know that we plan to install PV in the near-ish future, so to keep that in mind in terms of not doing work twice. His company also does PV installs, so he at least had knowledge of what our long-term plans would be.

Nothing else to report that's different from what was already posted. Only interesting thing to note was that as we were filling out paperwork, the contractor noted that I was "high up" on the reservation list based on my number. (I reserved within 3 hours of the first e-mail.) I inquired whether that meant I'd get my Leaf in December, as I'm not in San Diego or Sonoma County. His opinion was that Nissan would piss off a lot of reservation holders if they didn't roll out the Leaf in order of reservations, but that was just his opinion.

oops! Should have posted to the Assessment thread!

 

[gasmiser1]

I had my assessment appointment yesterday. The price will be forthcoming. Weird part: The charger can be installed as early at September, but the Leaf isn't coming out until December. Isn't this the cart before the horse? How am I expected to purchase and install the charger without even a test drive of this car? I like the look and feel of the Leaf, but I really need a test drive first!
My charger

install should be one of the cheapest quotes

since the 200 amp service on the outside of my garage is directly behind where the charger will be installed. It is about 12-18" of 8 gauge wire and a couple screws to mount. I have plenty of available space for the 50 amp service needed. Plus, I already have a ground fault 110 receptacle next to where the charger will be installed.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I had my assessment appointment yesterday. The price will be forthcoming. Weird part: The charger can be installed as early at September, but the Leaf isn't coming out until December. Isn't this the cart before the horse? How am I expected to purchase and install the charger without even a test drive of this car? I like the look and feel of the Leaf, but I really need a test drive first!
My charger

install should be one of the cheapest quotes

since the 200 amp service on the outside of my garage is directly behind where the charger will be installed. It is about 12-18" of 8 gauge wire and a couple screws to mount. I have plenty of available space for the 50 amp service needed. Plus, I already have a ground fault 110 receptacle next to where the charger will be installed.

Expect your quote to be $2200, they won't reduce the bids for easy installs until customers push back. Mine is even simpler, the conduit, wire, and breaker are installed like many here and all they need to do for the EVSE is screw it to the wall and connect the wires.

 

[gasmiser1]

I had my assessment appointment yesterday. The price will be forthcoming. Weird part: The charger can be installed as early at September, but the Leaf isn't coming out until December. Isn't this the cart before the horse? How am I expected to purchase and install the charger without even a test drive of this car? I like the look and feel of the Leaf, but I really need a test drive first!
My charger

install should be one of the cheapest quotes

since the 200 amp service on the outside of my garage is directly behind where the charger will be installed. It is about 12-18" of 8 gauge wire and a couple screws to mount. I have plenty of available space for the 50 amp service needed. Plus, I already have a ground fault 110 receptacle next to where the charger will be installed.

Expect your quote to be $2200, they won't reduce the bids for easy installs until customers push back. Mine is even simpler, the conduit, wire, and breaker are installed like many here and all they need to do for the EVSE is screw it to the wall and connect the wires.

If the charger unit is only $700, How can the install cost a minimum of $2200? Permit fee shouldn't be more that $75-100 in my city.

 

[garygid]

From the 2 bids we have seen (approximate values):

1. EVSE, tax, and "shipping and delivery": $725, $50, $68

2. Permit (and processing): $50 to $300

3. A "Standard Installation" at your location: $1250

4. Any custom install: add more $

 

[pgrovetom]

I'm having my assessment which should be a good test. I've already installed the conduit and wiring from a new breaker in my garage sub-panel to my preferred EVSE location. That means the actual installer only needs to pull the permit online ( no inspection for a licensed electrician) and mount the EVSE and connect my wires. It can't get any cheaper for the installing electrician. So I'm hoping my cost should be about the permit = $75 + EVSE unit cost = $750 + 1 Hr labor = $125. That should put it in the $900-$1000 range. By removing most of the labor and electrical material cost, I will find out the real minimum and so post it here. I'm also curious how the assessor will react when he sees I've simplified ( and removed profit ) from their work. Stay tuned!

 

[EVDRIVER]

If the charger unit is only $700, How can the install cost a minimum of $2200? Permit fee shouldn't be more that $75-100 in my city.[/quote]


I meant the total- $1200 is too high for a "screw on" installation and permit process in these cases.

 

[pgrovetom]

My assessment is today at between 12-1PM PST. I was called from a cell phone last nigh about 8PM. I believe its a local contractor hired by AV and or Nissan. Hopefully with the work I've done plus my ZERO S Motorcycle sitting 10 feet away on a standard 20A garage GFCI circuit should make for an interesting discussion.