EVSE Installation, Info and Cost Comparison Thread

[evnow]

Remember the controversy of why an EVSE needed to be hardwired ?

This has been discussed to death. L2 does not need to be hardwired. There is a specific clarification the committee gave on this. Search for the thread ...

 

[LEAFer]

Remember the controversy of why an EVSE needed to be hardwired ?

This has been discussed to death. L2 does not need to be hardwired. There is a specific clarification the committee gave on this. Search for the thread ...

I know ! I only mentioned it as an intro to the Leviton solution ... and notice I said "controversy" ( Have you had your coffee yet today? )

 

[wwhitney]

That means I need to have my Electric Vehicle Service Equipment (EVSE, e.g. the Leviton unit) to support at least 30A charging. The 6-30R unit should be enough for this in principle, and in fact, there is some rounding off and efficiency loss that I've glossed over that means the 6-30R is actually a pretty good fit for 6.6kW charging.

To be a bit more specific, the EVSE can only use 80% of the circuit capacity because it may be a continuous load (over 3 hours at maximum load). So an EVSE on a 30 amp/240V circuit could use 240V*30amp*80% = 5.76kW.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[garygid]

But, if one limits charging to 2.5 hours, the full 50-amps (from a 50-amp breaker) could be used?

Then, 240 x 50 -> 12 kW ... enough for charging in about 2 hours.

So, where is the 12 kW charger for the LEAF, and the 50-amp EVSE?

 

[EVDRIVER]

But, if one limits charging to 2.5 hours, the full 50-amps (from a 50-amp breaker) could be used?

Then, 240 x 50 -> 12 kW ... enough for charging in about 2 hours.

So, where is the 12 kW charger for the LEAF, and the 50-amp EVSE?

It is too costly to be standard.

 

[ht2]

I plan to make a few very short adapters to "adapt" the Leviton plug
to the different sockets that I might encounter while "roaming".

Old Dryer, New Dryer, RV, two-120v sockets, etc.
Other suggestions?

Use: for emergencies when a Quick-Charge is not available, or
for "end-point" charging at friend's, or grandma's house,
and for use at work, and the "standard" charging, at home.

How about using this Japanese version of 200V cable and add a few short adapters.
Much smaller and portable.
http://ev.nissan.co.jp/LEAF/CHARGE/
8 hours charge time, using flat pin type of plug, 3m 7.5m 15m cable length option.

 

[garygid]

A "small" Japanese plug-in EVSE with a 45-foot cord.
Now we are starting to get "useful".

On 40 or 50-amp L2 charging, the EVSE is not much different, and not very expensive.

Of course, the charger would cost more.
As an option to replace the 3.3 kW (8-hour) charger, how much would you pay (assuming you actually wanted it) for these?

1. a 6.6 kW (4-hour) 240v charger
2. a 12 kW (2-hour) 240v charger.

 

[EVDRIVER]

A "small" Japanese plug-in EVSE with a 45-foot cord.
Now we are starting to get "useful".

On 40 or 50-amp L2 charging, the EVSE is not much different, and not very expensive.

Of course, the charger would cost more.
As an option to replace the 3.3 kW (8-hour) charger, how much would you pay (assuming you actually wanted it) for these?

1. a 6.6 kW (4-hour) 240v charger
2. a 12 kW (2-hour) 240v charger.

I would never buy a replacement charger that is 6.6kw unless it was about $700. I would pay about $1500 for a 12kw model. If i could get a 12kw outboard charger that plugged into the L3 port I would pay $3000 because I could sell it when I sell the EV and I could use it on another EV.

 

[evnow]

I know ! I only mentioned it as an intro to the Leviton solution ... and notice I said "controversy" ( Have you had your coffee yet today? )

Actually, I've been lazy. Need to roast coffee - so haven't had coffee in 2 days

 

[LEAFer]

I know ! I only mentioned it as an intro to the Leviton solution ... and notice I said "controversy" ( Have you had your coffee yet today? )

Actually, I've been lazy. Need to roast coffee - so haven't had coffee in 2 days

Ok ... you're forgiven :lol: Except ... not having coffee on hand is IN-EX-CUS-ABLE !

 

[evnow]

Ok ... you're forgiven :lol: Except ... not having coffee on hand is IN-EX-CUS-ABLE !

I did have coffee - just not roasted ones

Anyway, I've corrected that just now. Driking fresh roasted Workshop #11 "Tono Alto" Espresso cold "latte".

http://www.sweetmarias.com/coffee.other.blends.php

 

[LEAFer]

Ok ... you're forgiven :lol: Except ... not having coffee on hand is IN-EX-CUS-ABLE !

Driking fresh roasted Workshop #11 "Tono Alto" Espresso cold "latte".

http://www.sweetmarias.com/coffee.other.blends.php

NICE ! Based on the "Cupping Scores" ... I like "Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber Espresso Blend". Will need to discuss this with the CFO (Chief Family Officer).

 

[evnow]

NICE ! Based on the "Cupping Scores" ... I like "Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber Espresso Blend". Will need to discuss this with the CFO (Chief Family Officer).

I have had that - quite nice. But I generally like making my own blends - I can tailor for taste and style (i.e. with milk). Usually espresso blends are too bland for latte.

 

[EVDRIVER]

NICE ! Based on the "Cupping Scores" ... I like "Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber Espresso Blend". Will need to discuss this with the CFO (Chief Family Officer).

I have had that - quite nice. But I generally like making my own blends - I can tailor for taste and style (i.e. with milk). Usually espresso blends are too bland for latte.

I buy from them, they are not far from where I live but my roaster broke and I don't feel like dropping $500 for a decent roaster.

 

[TimeHorse]

Of course, the charger would cost more.
As an option to replace the 3.3 kW (8-hour) charger, how much would you pay (assuming you actually wanted it) for these?

1. a 6.6 kW (4-hour) 240v charger
2. a 12 kW (2-hour) 240v charger.

Ah, Gary, I think you really are on to something: http://ualstore.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=A412232-HV&x=0&y=0

It seems to me, what we're really talking about is to build in Rectifier that turns the AC into DC and charges the battery using Direct Current. There may be some transformer to step the current up or down as allowed by the battery charge limits and thus allow the fabled 2.5 hour charge!

Now, that unit up there is based on single-pole 240V circuits as are used in the U.K. (and, IIRC, Japan) where as in the U.S. our 240V circuits are usually dual-phase (hot-hot) circuits, so we couldn't use exactly that unit. But, it's small and could certainly fit in the car and at £260.00, or about $400, this wouldn't be all that pricey even if installation was made it twice that. I mean, really, under a grand for 2.5 hour charging, who wouldn't want that??

That said, remember how Quick Charging more than once a day is said to severely degrade your battery's capacity and shorten it's life. Mark Parry (again, IIRC) on Science Friday stated that 6.6kW charging would not degrade the battery life. I wonder if 12kW charging would, and if so by how much. Still, if it could be installed and did not limit the battery capacity then I'm easily in for the cool G!

For 6.6kW, I'd probably still pay a G for it, but in this case I'd have to say if I'd pay the same for the 12kW, I'd consider the 6.6kW at $1000 a ripoff. Instead, I'd consider it reasonable at $700 or so, if not less.

As for using something besides the J1772 port to provide the 240V @ 50A current, I'd say no. J1772 is for L2 and 240V 50A is still technically L2 since it uses AC. Keep the Quick Charge / DC for L3 with it's specific connector; L2 should remain AC with the built-in Rectifier.

 

[garygid]

Right, the L2 "charger" (currently 3.3 kW) is inside the car (probably "in" the cargo area).

It converts AC to a variable-voltage DC to "feed" just the correct amount (regulated) of current to the battery pack.

The pack will have a "BMS" that will tell the charger when the pack is (getting) full, and the charger needs to stop (or reduce) the charge current.

Charging at 0.5C (2-hour rate) should NOT stress the battery.

Our 240v vs their 240v should not matter. They mention 50A at 240v (12 kW), but also mention 24 kW?

In any case, solid state "chopper" circuitry is usually used these days, and the old, heavy transformer is generally not used.

Depending upon this unit's regulation of output current, and the "communication" required between the charger and both the BMS and the J1772-interface module, this might work.

For safety, and to get the LEAF firmly introduced with very few "incidents", I suspect that Nissan is sticking with proven, tested, conservative hardware.

We should do our best to NOT muck that up. It would only take a few "explosions" to give the sensational press the fuel it needs to damage the EV's successful introduction.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Of course, the charger would cost more.
As an option to replace the 3.3 kW (8-hour) charger, how much would you pay (assuming you actually wanted it) for these?

1. a 6.6 kW (4-hour) 240v charger
2. a 12 kW (2-hour) 240v charger.

Ah, Gary, I think you really are on to something: http://ualstore.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=A412232-HV&x=0&y=0

It seems to me, what we're really talking about is to build in Rectifier that turns the AC into DC and charges the battery using Direct Current. There may be some transformer to step the current up or down as allowed by the battery charge limits and thus allow the fabled 2.5 hour charge!

Now, that unit up there is based on single-pole 240V circuits as are used in the U.K. (and, IIRC, Japan) where as in the U.S. our 240V circuits are usually dual-phase (hot-hot) circuits, so we couldn't use exactly that unit. But, it's small and could certainly fit in the car and at £260.00, or about $400, this wouldn't be all that pricey even if installation was made it twice that. I mean, really, under a grand for 2.5 hour charging, who wouldn't want that??

That said, remember how Quick Charging more than once a day is said to severely degrade your battery's capacity and shorten it's life. Mark Parry (again, IIRC) on Science Friday stated that 6.6kW charging would not degrade the battery life. I wonder if 12kW charging would, and if so by how much. Still, if it could be installed and did not limit the battery capacity then I'm easily in for the cool G!

For 6.6kW, I'd probably still pay a G for it, but in this case I'd have to say if I'd pay the same for the 12kW, I'd consider the 6.6kW at $1000 a ripoff. Instead, I'd consider it reasonable at $700 or so, if not less.

As for using something besides the J1772 port to provide the 240V @ 50A current, I'd say no. J1772 is for L2 and 240V 50A is still technically L2 since it uses AC. Keep the Quick Charge / DC for L3 with it's specific connector; L2 should remain AC with the built-in Rectifier.

Proper chargers are expensive to make, period. What I mean by proper are ones that talk to BMS and other devices and are built to last in an OEM automotive environment (very different standard) and are fully isolated. Make no mistake that these features are expensive and the more power then the related costs and cooling issues go up. Once you move beyond 3.3kw to 7 and above the charger in the Leaf would need to be liquid cooled and even at MFG cost would result in the typical retail markup becoming more expensive than expected. $1K upgrade for a 6.6-7.3kw charger is a deal. Using a "bad boy" charger is going to require other circuits to protect the pack unless you only charge to about 70%. to be safe. Using an external proper charger (not isolated) is going to cost about $3K plus the cost of mods and cords IF you can get it to talk to the BMS properly. The best option is a mass-produced factory option so you don't pay twice and it is installed from the factory. A second option is a proper 9.6kw external charger that has been set up to work with the BMS, this is a good option as it will draw a max of 40A and still provide superior charging and a reasonable price point. Bottom line is the G1 Leaf is leaving the factory with an underpowered charger for the pack size IMO. Once the L3 port is used widely someone will have a high power kit that is portable and can be use on all EVS with L3

 

[garygid]

Yes, the difficulty, safety, and cost is in the details and integration.

But, as you point out, there are many ways to skin a ... a ... a carrot.

Looking ahead 30 years, some kind of "really-quick" Quick-Charge stations will probably be common, with new battery chemistries to match.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Looking ahead 30 years, some kind of "really-quick" Quick-Charge stations will probably be common, with new battery chemistries to match.

I'm thinking some form of supercapacitor that can take/give 100% of it's energy in seconds without melting down, exploding, etc.

Batteries are a good energy storage solution for now, but improvements and new technology will some on line. Right now, the push is for smaller batteries for cell phones, laptops, etc.; reduce size and weight and increase storage.

With EV's, you can somewhat ignore the size/weight portion of that argument and that allows new venues to be considered. Right now, though, there aren't enough minds concentrated on the idea.

Hard drives were once big, slow, and low storage. Now we have SDD that have no moving parts and are much more efficient. I think we'll see similar leaps in EV capabilities in the next decade +.

 

[garygid]

In 1979, IBM's "biggest" computer occupied a basketball sized room. The CPU had 4 MB of water-cooled memory, and was as big as a refrigerator.

Now, a "wristwatch" can have more memory and CPU than that!

But, we are STILL without sufficient clean drinking water, and people are going hungry, and starving. Where are our priorities?