Ford Focus EV

[JeffN]

Remember LG battery is half a generation behind Leaf's (if one 1 generation). LG batteries won't work safely if not cooled. They are trying to pass of a neccessity as an extra feature.

Interesting assertions. Can you provide some links to more details to back this up?

I've been reading as much as I can find on Li battery technology but have not yet seen any detailed and credible comparison of the Leaf vs. LG Chem battery designs.

What specific chemistry or design difference makes the Leaf battery safe using air cooling while the LG battery cells require liquid cooling for safety. Or, is this just a matter of optimizing battery capacity lifetime.

Does the Leaf battery really have superior thermal ability (safety, aging) or did they just choose for various pragmatic reasons to skip liquid cooling? Maybe it's primarily a physical design tradeoff of spreading the cells over a larger surface area under the floor versus more densely packing them along the center (Volt) or rear (Focus). How do we know?

 

[SanDust]

The NY Times reviewed the new Focus. The reviewer loved the car but hated the transmission. To the extent the EV version won't have this transmission that's a big plus, though the battery mass will change the driving dynamics, which could be a bad thing. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/automobiles/autoreviews/ford-focus-is-slick-package-but-gearbox-is-a-drag.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles

I think it's hard to start with an ICE version and convert it to an EV. There are a lot of mass/packaging/aerodynamic trade-offs in a body and what you want for an EV isn't what you want for an ICE. Ford is making lemonade from lemons by spinning it that there will be one assembly line and customers can pick which version they want. Sounds good but the reality is that the Focus EV is a converted ICE with all the compromises that entails. A Swiss army knife will work as a screwdriver in a pinch but if you want a screwdriver it's not the best choice.

There is also the marketing lesson from the hybrids that having a distinctive look rather than a small logo is key to success. The Focus may look a lot better than a Leaf but it's going to look like every other Ford Focus, of which there will be tonnes.

Ford still seems to be saying early 2012 but that probably means something like the Leaf roll out in 2010 -- a few cars and lots of press events. Hopefully there will be more cars than you can count on hand and toes before the end of 2012 but the silence from Ford isn't encouraging.

 

[SanDust]

Interesting assertions. Can you provide some links to more details to back this up?

What specific chemistry or design difference makes the Leaf battery safe using air cooling while the LG battery cells require liquid cooling for safety. Or, is this just a matter of optimizing battery capacity lifetime.

Does the Leaf battery really have superior thermal ability (safety, aging) or did they just choose for various pragmatic reasons to skip liquid cooling? Maybe it's primarily a physical design tradeoff of spreading the cells over a larger surface area under the floor versus more densely packing them along the center (Volt) or rear (Focus). How do we know?

The batteries use very similar chemistry. You don't have to thermally manage the LG Chem cells for safety purposes, it's just that they won't last as long if you don't. Lithium batteries do not like to get hot. Heat shortens their life. FYI a Nissan engineer more straight up than spinmeister Mark Perry, told Wired that Nissan had explored the possibility of adding a TMS system but that the effort was killed because it would have resulted in one less seat. http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/ Obviously it would also have taken more time and cost more as well, important considerations when the price point and time to market of the Leaf were so critical.

The idea that the Leaf battery is superior and therefore doesn't require a TMS is more or less the companion to the claim that the Leaf battery pack is 30 kWh. Some people will find this idea comforting as, per the manual, they wait for the battery to cool before charging and only charge to 80% of capacity, both of which you do because the car lacks a TMS system.

No doubt the lack of a TMS will result in some failed battery packs that Nissan will have to replace. Nissan has just concluded that it's cheaper to replace these packs that the the time and expense and packaging issues they'd shoulder by putting in a TMS system. Don't be shocked to see a TMS in the next generation.

 

[LeafGarrett]

I read that Ford is subbing out the production of the Focus EV to a canadian company called Magna, I think there phonin' in this one.

 

[rnkepler]

This is funny. The very day I'm supposed to be able to finally order a Leaf, I get a 2012 Focus Electric flyer in the mail from Ford.

Coming spring 2012

Had they previously announced a delay in availability?

 

[evnow]

This is funny. The very day I'm supposed to be able to finally order a Leaf, I get a 2012 Focus Electric flyer in the mail from Ford.

Coming spring 2012

Had they previously announced a delay in availability?

Are you in the launch market for Focus EV ? In the chat they had on Jul-21st, they confirmed that there is no delat with Focus EV launch to a specific question about it.

BTW, can you scan and post the flyer ?

 

[rnkepler]

I'll try to get it scanned in later today if I can get my old scanner working and yes, I'm essentially in Raleigh which is an initial launch market for the Focus electric.

 

[kmp647]

i got it today too, seems they are aware of the timing

hoping to keep some people guessing

says spring 2012

uh huh right , plenty available by then........
no pricing or order system yet

BTW I am in northern Virginia , not a launch market

 

[Herm]

Its impossible to say if the Leafs battery is superior to the Volts.. two different applications. Both batteries have very low internal resistance, so they dont generate a lot of heat.. since the Leaf is a BEV it has limited range and can do perhaps 1.5 hours of hwy cruising there is limited opportunity to heat up, limited heat is produced in that 1.5 hours, not enough to warrant liquid cooling... also it is a larger battery and thus the C loading is lower than the Volts... and perhaps Nissan chose a cell configuration with less internal resistance ... Nissan may have configured the pack insulation to use the chassis of the car as a heat sink.

The Volt in that same 1.5 hour will generate a bit more heat because the pack is smaller and is loaded higher, also since it has essentially unlimited range there is a potential for a heat soak of the batteries for several hours. Thus the need for active cooling. GM may have a different goal for battery life compared to Nissan, again, impossible to say.

In any case the goal is to avoid the complexity of liquid cooling.You dont want leaks inside the battery case.

Tomorrow we will explain why the Ford Focus and Tesla's offerings will have liquid cooling

BTW, the Sonata Hybrid uses an LG lithium pack, it is worked very hard and yet it is air cooled.

 

[evnow]

Tomorrow we will explain why the Ford Focus and Tesla's offerings will have liquid cooling

Who is "we" ?

 

[evnow]

http://www.thefordstory.com/our-articles/suvs/escape/join-the-live-chat-with-ford-hybrid-and-battery-engineers-to-talk-about-durability/

1:20 Comment From Marc Lee
Is the Focus EV still on track for a launch late this year?

1:21 Ford:
Yes, Marc. The plan is in place to have the Focus Electric in the market in late 2011.

 

[mxp]

http://www.thefordstory.com/our-articles/suvs/escape/join-the-live-chat-with-ford-hybrid-and-battery-engineers-to-talk-about-durability/

1:20 Comment From Marc Lee
Is the Focus EV still on track for a launch late this year?

1:21 Ford:
Yes, Marc. The plan is in place to have the Focus Electric in the market in late 2011.

Is there a definite websitesite that provides the Ford Focus EV production specs?

 

[rnkepler]

Is there a definite websitesite that provides the Ford Focus EV production specs?

This is Ford's web site.

2012 Ford Focus Electric

 

[rnkepler]

2012 Ford Focus Electric July 25th mailer. The most interesting bit is on the cover.

 

[evnow]

2012 Ford Focus Electric July 25th mailer. The most interesting bit is on the cover.

What are the chances that they printed separate mailers depending on the time of availability in a particular area and sent the correct one to recipients ?

May be they will do a soft "launch" like Nissan did in Dec, but really start delivering cars in March '12. BTW, I heard they are no longer working with Magna on the car. They have a new supplier - anyone heard that ?

 

[mwalsh]

Looks good!

 

[TLeaf]

After having seen the new-body Focus "in the flesh", I've got to recant my former statement; I'm beginning to think it's not quite so nice looking on the outside as I had originally thought from the press release pictures. The inside still looks worlds better than what's in the LEAF, but now it's more of a toss up between a car w/ better exterior looks vs. one w/ better interior looks.

I've also come to accept that Ford will probably sell more standard Focii (??) than Nissan will ever sell of this body style of LEAF, so looks like I might get to have an "exclusive" car after all!

 

[evnow]

After having seen the new-body Focus "in the flesh", I've got to recant my former statement; I'm beginning to think it's not quite so nice looking on the outside as I had originally thought from the press release pictures.

My thought on Focus is that the form of the front doesn't fit rest of the body. Since they tried to make a platform with multiple vehicles in varying lengths - but very similar front end, rest of the body on Focus looks somewhat cut short.

One of these days I'll go to a Ford dealer and take some photos.

 

[Boomer23]

After having seen the new-body Focus "in the flesh", I've got to recant my former statement; I'm beginning to think it's not quite so nice looking on the outside as I had originally thought from the press release pictures. The inside still looks worlds better than what's in the LEAF, but now it's more of a toss up between a car w/ better exterior looks vs. one w/ better interior looks.

I've also come to accept that Ford will probably sell more standard Focii (??) than Nissan will ever sell of this body style of LEAF, so looks like I might get to have an "exclusive" car after all!

+1

At first, I REALLY liked the EV version of the new body style. That was probably because it is a nicer looking, more balanced design than the LEAF, IMO. Now that I've seen the ICE versions on the highway, with their more aggressive grilles and chin treatments, I think that the EV version looks too bland.

And regarding the number of the ICE versions that we'll see on the road, the Focus is a staple of rental car fleets. In some areas, we'll be inundated by these cars.

 

[evnow]

Some new information on Focus EV.

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/introducing-the-electric-ford-focus.html

How long is the battery pack warranty?

Battery pack warranties for the Focus Electric haven’t been announced yet – but we are looking at a similar warranty as our hybrids – which is 10 yr./150,000 miles. Of course, we are building our batteries to last longer than that.

Is the electric Focus available to buy or to lease?

The Focus Electric will be available for purchase and lease starting in late 2011.

Is there a waiting list currently to purchase one, like the Leaf has?

Ford will have a sign up list starting later this year. People interested in being one of our early hand raisers for the vehicle should keep an eye on our Facebook page for details over the next couple months at facebook.com/fordelectrifiedvehicles

What features will be standard on the Focus Electric?

Like its gas-powered twin, the car features an array of standard power-operated accessories including Hands-free SYNC® telephone connectivity, Electronic traction control, MyKey®, AM/FM/CD/MP3 Sony audio with nine speakers, SIRIUS® Satellite Radio, HD Radio™ and Voice-activated Navigation System