Letter about possible Nissan Lawsuit

[dandrewk]

Perhaps Nissan will use that technology and make an extended range vehicle because that's where it looks like electric propulsion is headed.

Auto plants convert to different production lines and models all the time.

There are at least a dozen new EVs that are planned or rumored. Besides the Volt, Prius and (maybe) Ford Fusion, I know of no other PHEVs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Auto plants convert to different production lines and models all the time.

I don't know if it's that easy after accepting $1.6 billion (of $1.9 billion loaned by the US government) to just shut down, or change away from EV's.

That plant will power up before Dec 31, 2012 to produce the LEAF, even if every LEAF battery spontaniously self combusted. Guaranteed.

 

[evnow]

The lawsuit will help
- The lawyers
- People / Media looking to bash EVs

Finally the owners will end up with may be $1000, lawyers with a few Million and Media with lot of stories to write. May be we will get Who Killed The Electric Car (part II).

 

[dandrewk]

The lawsuit will help
- The lawyers
- People / Media looking to bash EVs

Finally the owners will end up with may be $1000, lawyers with a few Million and Media with lot of stories to write. May be we will get Who Killed The Electric Car (part II).

Adding to your list:

- certain political parties looking for any old reason, truthful or not, to bash EVs and any politician that supports EVs. Look to see Leaf and Fisker problems as drummed up talking points. Be sure to wear a hat, as the BS is bound to fly.

 

[Train]

There are at least a dozen new EVs that are planned or rumored. Besides the Volt, Prius and (maybe) Ford Fusion, I know of no other PHEVs.

Regardless of what companies have planned, cold, hard reality will decide what direction they will go.

Sales will be what determines continuing product development. If people won't buy them, they will discontinue making them. It's that simple.

If EV sales numbers continue to be hundreds of cars per month, they will have no choice but to change course, cut their losses and go with what is selling in the market.

I'm seeing extended range vehicles coming out on top.

 

[Adrian]

The lawsuit will help
- The lawyers
- People / Media looking to bash EVs

Finally the owners will end up with may be $1000, lawyers with a few Million and Media with lot of stories to write. May be we will get Who Killed The Electric Car (part II).

Adding to your list:

- certain political parties looking for any old reason, truthful or not, to bash EVs and any politician that supports EVs. Look to see Leaf and Fisker problems as drummed up talking points. Be sure to wear a hat, as the BS is bound to fly.

How about future Nissan Leaf owners? Wouldn't a change in behavior on Nissan's part (assuming a positive change) benefit future Leaf owners? I might buy my next Nissan Leaf instead of lease if I had more confidence in the battery based on technical improvements, better warranty and potentially less stone-walling by Nissan.

I have always viewed class action suits as a tool to change behavior, not recover damages for the plaintiff class.

 

[dandrewk]

I'm seeing extended range vehicles coming out on top.

Based on what? Current market conditions? Where, if you want to go more than 150 miles on a charge, you have to pay $75,000. Put a 150 mile battery in a Leaf and watch sales take off. Put a 300 mile battery in an EV for $30-35k and watch Volt sales drop off the map. That's where we're headed.

Look at how many more EV models there are than PHEVs, current and planned. Do you think car manufacturers haven't done any market research?

 

[GRA]

I'm seeing extended range vehicles coming out on top.

Based on what? Current market conditions? Where, if you want to go more than 150 miles on a charge, you have to pay $75,000. Put a 150 mile battery in a Leaf and watch sales take off. Put a 300 mile battery in an EV for $30-35k and watch Volt sales drop off the map. That's where we're headed.

Look at how many more EV models there are than PHEVs, current and planned. Do you think car manufacturers haven't done any market research?

You should add both the Fusion (which you mentioned) and the C-Max Energi to your PHEV list. Judged by sales, PHEVs are winning the sales war over BEVs by a large margin in the U.S. at the moment, and that's likely to continue until battery prices come way down. Several companies seem to have put their BEV introductions on the back burner, if not pulling them altogether; BYD comes to mind, Coda appears to be moribund, and the Smart ED has been much delayed although it looks like it will finally go on sale soon.

Mainstream consumers just don't see the value in current expensive, limited-range BEVs. I've said it before, but to repeat I think we'll only get the mainstream to BEVs by way of PHEVs first, barring some huge sustained increase in gas prices, a breakthrough in battery prices and energy densities, undeniable proof of catastrophic AGCC or some combination of the three.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

take a good hard look at where consumers spend their money today

they have never spend money wisely or financially feasible

it is always been money spent based on emotions.

so it doesn't matter how rightt electric vehicles are there is simply not enough emotional right now to make them work

 

[dandrewk]

You should add both the Fusion (which you mentioned) and the C-Max Energi to your PHEV list. Judged by sales, PHEVs are winning the sales war over BEVs by a large margin in the U.S. at the moment, and that's likely to continue until battery prices come way down. Several companies seem to have put their BEV introductions on the back burner, if not pulling them altogether; BYD comes to mind, Coda appears to be moribund, and the Smart ED has been much delayed although it looks like it will finally go on sale soon.

Mainstream consumers just don't see the value in current expensive, limited-range BEVs. I've said it before, but to repeat I think we'll only get the mainstream to BEVs by way of PHEVs first, barring some huge sustained increase in gas prices, a breakthrough in battery prices and energy densities, undeniable proof of catastrophic AGCC or some combination of the three.

I agree, and said essentially the same thing (I think...), but an not aware of any mainstream manufactures that have pulled back from EVs. It's all a numbers game, and each will be pushing for the edge and spurring the competition to come up with something better. Looking at the players - Toyota, Ford, GM, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes... I've seen very little sign that they aren't fully committed to EV's. And yes, in the meantime PHEVs will hold a commanding short term lead.

 

[scottf200]

I'm confused as I would guess the plaintiffs feel they would getting new/renewed/refurbished batteries.

 

[dandrewk]

take a good hard look at where consumers spend their money today

they have never spend money wisely or financially feasible

it is always been money spent based on emotions.

so it doesn't matter how rightt electric vehicles are there is simply not enough emotional right now to make them work

Emotions (or lack thereof) will guide the ICE vs. BEVs choice for the short term. Those who feel strongly about global warming or hate the oil companies and despotic oligarchies ruling a precious resource have already made the switch. Or at least seriously considering it to the point of an actual purchase in the next few years.

After that, emotions won't matter and it will come down to basic economics - does an EV make practical and financial sense? Put a reliable, fun to drive EV out on the road with a 300 mile range, make the MSRP within reach for the typical new car buyer, and the world will beat a path to your doorstep.

 

[GRA]

You should add both the Fusion (which you mentioned) and the C-Max Energi to your PHEV list. Judged by sales, PHEVs are winning the sales war over BEVs by a large margin in the U.S. at the moment, and that's likely to continue until battery prices come way down. Several companies seem to have put their BEV introductions on the back burner, if not pulling them altogether; BYD comes to mind, Coda appears to be moribund, and the Smart ED has been much delayed although it looks like it will finally go on sale soon.

Mainstream consumers just don't see the value in current expensive, limited-range BEVs. I've said it before, but to repeat I think we'll only get the mainstream to BEVs by way of PHEVs first, barring some huge sustained increase in gas prices, a breakthrough in battery prices and energy densities, undeniable proof of catastrophic AGCC or some combination of the three.

I agree, and said essentially the same thing (I think...), but an not aware of any mainstream manufactures that have pulled back from EVs. It's all a numbers game, and each will be pushing for the edge and spurring the competition to come up with something better. Looking at the players - Toyota, Ford, GM, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes... I've seen very little sign that they aren't fully committed to EV's. And yes, in the meantime PHEVs will hold a commanding short term lead.

Which reminds me, Honda is also introducing a PHEV version of the Accord.

 

[TomT]

I wonder if it will be as well engineered as their Civic Hybrid? If it looses capacity, they can just reprogram it to run the engine more, and damn the mileage and emissions! :lol:

Which reminds me, Honda is also introducing a PHEV version of the Accord.

 

[GRA]

I wonder if it will be as well engineered as their Civic Hybrid? If it looses capacity, they can just reprogram it to run the engine more! :lol:

Which reminds me, Honda is also introducing a PHEV version of the Accord.

Which is better than having to sell the car because it will no longer get you to work, as some* BEV owners have already found out . My main point is that the Accord and Fusion have both been in the top ten in sales this year (the Prius has been in and out depending on gas prices), so having such high-selling cars provide both HEV and PHEV options to customers is a very good thing (tm), IMO.

*It has come to the author's attention that his use of 'some' in this post has caused concern as being insufficiently precise. The author intended it in the sense of adjectival definitions 1 or 2 below, rather than definition 3 as some (def. 1, 2) have understood it.

Definition: Some

adj.
1.Being an unspecified number or quantity: Some people came into the room. Would you like some sugar?
2.Being a portion or an unspecified number or quantity of a whole or group: He likes some modern sculpture but not all.
3.Being a considerable number or quantity: She has been directing films for some years now.
4.Unknown or unspecified by name: Some man called.
5.Logic. Being part and perhaps all of a class.
6.Informal. Remarkable: She is some skier.

pron.
1.An indefinite or unspecified number or portion: We took some of the books to the auction. See Usage Note at every.
2.An indefinite additional quantity: did the assigned work and then some.

adv.
1.Approximately; about: Some 40 people attended the rally.
2.Informal. Somewhat: some tired.

To eliminate any confusion, please feel free to mentally substitute the phrase 'a very few but increasing number of' for 'some' in the post.

 

[thankyouOB]

I wonder if it will be as well engineered as their Civic Hybrid? If it looses capacity, they can just reprogram it to run the engine more! :lol:

Which reminds me, Honda is also introducing a PHEV version of the Accord.

Which is better than having to sell the car because it will no longer get you to work, as some BEV owners have already found out . My main point is that the Accord and Fusion have both been in the top ten in sales this year (the Prius has been in and out depending on gas prices), so having such high-selling cars provide both HEV and PHEV options to customers is a very good thing (tm), IMO.

some = highly misleading.
a few = closer to the truth
a very few but increasing number of = accurate

or tiny tiny ity bitty of less than a fraction of less than 1% of all buyers in the first year.

 

[LEAFfan]

I'm confused as I would guess the plaintiffs feel they would getting new/renewed/refurbished batteries.

+1 I'm not advocating class-action, but despite some posters saying the plaintiffs would only receive a small settlement, they are being ridiculous. I agree with your conclusion.

 

[ztanos]

Which is better than having to sell the car because it will no longer get you to work, as some BEV owners have already found out . My main point is that the Accord and Fusion have both been in the top ten in sales this year (the Prius has been in and out depending on gas prices), so having such high-selling cars provide both HEV and PHEV options to customers is a very good thing (tm), IMO.

some = highly misleading.
a few = closer to the truth
a very few but increasing number of = accurate

or tiny tiny ity bitty of less than a fraction of less than 1% of all buyers in the first year.

It's good you caught his main point over semantic issues.

 

[shrink]

some = highly misleading.
a few = closer to the truth
a very few but increasing number of = accurate

or tiny tiny ity bitty of less than a fraction of less than 1% of all buyers in the first year.

Well, now that you're citing stats, let me know what get when you run a t-test comparing the mean capacity losses of LEAF owners in Phoenix versus the mean capacity loss of the general population of LEAF's. Then if you really want to get crazy, run an ANOVA among capacity losses among Arizona LEAF owners versus every other state. You can even add the means of international populations to the ANOVA if you want.

If you want to use stats, please have an understanding of which statistical analyses address the question at hand. In this context, the "fraction of less than 1%" you cite has little meaning. 0.14% of babies born in the U.S. will have Down's Syndrome. Doesn't meant it's not a problem.

 

[TomT]

I want a chi squared analysis! :lol:

Well, now that you're citing stats, let me know what get when you run a t-test comparing the mean capacity losses of LEAF owners in Phoenix versus the mean capacity loss of the general population of LEAF's. Then if you really want to get crazy, run an ANOVA among capacity losses among Arizona LEAF owners versus every other state. You can even add the means of international populations to the ANOVA if you want.

If you want to use stats, please have an understanding of which statistical analyses address the question at hand. In this context, the "fraction of less than 1%" you cite has little meaning. 0.14% of babies born in the U.S. will have Down's Syndrome. Doesn't meant it's not a problem.