smkettner
Well-known member
Don't underestimate GMs lobbying ability to get a never ending stream of government money.
TonyWilliams said:If SAE designs their protocol to be incompatible with ChaDeMo, so that no physical adapter will work at the hundreds to thousands of existing ChaDeMo stations, when there are close to zero SAE stations for the limited production cars like Spark and i3, good luck to them.
I think most Tesla owners knew that the proprietary Roadster connector would be unsuitable for mass adoption not least because of it's cost. However, when Tesla built the Roadster they had few options for a 70A connector, especially given that the standards committees were years away from finishing their work.bowthom said:How is this any different than Tesla roadster owners bemoaning the adoption of the J1772?
edatoakrun said:Which makes you wonder, if the SAE plug has actually been designed, largely with no intent, to charge EVs at all.
But instead, primarily, to muddy the outlook, and slow the establishment of the US fast-charge network, which, once established, will render most of the PHEV development efforts, of all auto manufactures, largely obsolete.
GM, or any other of the "SAE standard" proponents, will produce more than a token number of DC capable vehicles, (edit, with the possible exception of BMW?) in the foreseeable future."scottf200"]...we have No credible evidence that...
It could be that GM is hedging its bets on both Spark and on SAE QC. Now they have no plans to build more than a handful of Sparks for California to appease the CARB, and they hope to meet all EV demand with Volt which probably will give them a higher profit margin than Spark.edatoakrun said:My comment:
GM, or any other of the "SAE standard" proponents, will produce more than a token number of DC capable vehicles, (edit, with the possible exception of BMW?) in the foreseeable future."scottf200"]...we have No credible evidence that...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1074340_chevrolet-spark-ev-tested-in-california-details-unavailable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;walterbays said:But if gas goes to $7, if EV demand is much higher than forecast, if Spark is a big success in its test markets, then they could get serious about it, and start selling them in quantity, nationwide or worldwide. In that case they'd have a great combo. BEV's are the best fit for most people, but PHEV's are the best fit for many people. If someone comes into a Chevy dealer to look at Volt and discovers that a BEV is a better fit, no need to go across the street to the Nissan dealer: the Chevy salesman will sell him a Spark right there. Conversely if someone comes in to look at Spark and discovers a BEV isn't a good fit, no need to leave: the salesman will sell him a Volt.
Similarly, GM is probably hoping SAE QC wins out so that the quick charging infrastructure is delayed by 2-3 years during which Volt can gain market share over Leaf and Mitsubishi. But they slyly have only hinted they would use SAE QC. If they finally decide to build more than a token number of Sparks, and if by that time CHAdeMO is firmly established with hundreds of charging stations, then they could just use CHAdeMO - abandoning the handful of test market Sparks sporting SAE QC ports for charging stations that will never be built.
I added the red article text from my earlier post.We sat in today on a call with the Spark EV development engineers...
<snip>
The sole new piece of information was that the Chevy Spark EV would offer charging not only on 110-Volt household current and at 240-Volt Level 2 charging stations, but also via DC quick charging.
Asked for details, Schieffer declined to say whether that meant the Japanese CHAdeMO quick-charging standard built into Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars, or the still-under-development SAE standard that's not currently available on any production vehicle. (We're almost sure it's the latter.)
<snip>
And please keep in mind: This is a low-volume car that will almost surely be sold only in California and other [15] states that have adopted its emissions standards.
If you're in the other 35 or so states, Chevy already has a plug-in vehicle they'd just love to sell you.
IMHO the LEAF community should really be A LOT more concerned about the large number of Plug-in-Priuses that are going to be out there using L2 chargers. From the post I've read on their chat those new folks are getting addicted to driving on EV miles. I've read them complaining about other EVs being in charging stations when they wanted to use them. Those news articles about pure BEVs not being able to charge because of busy chargers may be a lot bigger issue than these QC issues.walterbays said:...Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars...
kubel said:Sorry guys, but I'm with SAE. We need a single charge port. ...
I'd love to see lots of PiPs, and to see Volt sales go up 2X or 10X, and to see Spark turn into a real production car, and to see Ford sell lots of Focus EV's. Every plug-in car on the road is more impetus to build more charging infrastructure. And as merchants begin charging money to charge, Volts and PiPs will establish a de facto ceiling for the price, the equivalent cost of gasoline, which will help BEV drivers.scottf200 said:IMHO the LEAF community should really be A LOT more concerned about the large number of Plug-in-Priuses that are going to be out there using L2 chargers.walterbays said:...Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars...
I can't speak for others. For myself, I see Ford with only a BEV now though they plan to introduce PHEV's later. So it would be to Ford's detriment to impede development of the charging infrastructure. And indeed it was GM, not Ford, which rammed through CA AB475 in an attempt to cripple the public charging infrastructure.If one of the seven come out with the SAE QC then certainly others of the seven will or already are in the stages of it. Why you guys insist on giving Ford a pass on this is still puzzling?
That will be interesting and 'separate the wheat from the chaff' for PHEV owners you really want to drive on EV miles. I think the ceiling will remain above the equivalent cost of gasoline especially in CA. There may be monthly unlimited charging plans that non-BEV drivers will still buy/use if they can use them a lot. Likely PiP users wouldn't tho because of the small charges they need and the cost would be prohibitive by comparison to the use.walterbays said:I'd love to see lots of PiPs, and to see Volt sales go up 2X or 10X, and to see Spark turn into a real production car, and to see Ford sell lots of Focus EV's. Every plug-in car on the road is more impetus to build more charging infrastructure. And as merchants begin charging money to charge, Volts and PiPs will establish a de facto ceiling for the price, the equivalent cost of gasoline, which will help BEV drivers.scottf200 said:IMHO the LEAF community should really be A LOT more concerned about the large number of Plug-in-Priuses that are going to be out there using L2 chargers.walterbays said:...Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars...
A central element for the increasing expansion of electromobility in Germany is taking shape. To enable all future users of electromobility to access a nationwide charging infrastructure in Germany comfortably and securely, BMW Group, Bosch, Daimler, EnBW, RWE, and Siemens have formed a joint venture, the hubject GmbH, based in Berlin. Fascinating, don’t you think? More information (in German language): http://www.hubject.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A scuffle over different types of connectors for plug-in vehicles has derailed Europe's attempt to adopt a standardized charging plug. According to EurActiv, this highlights "industrial jealousy" as the plug-in vehicle sector grows to enter the mainstream automotive market. The European Union's "focus group on electro-mobility" had aimed to adopt a connector standard for recharging plug-in vehicles by the end of March, but a battle between rival designs has postponed the decision.
Sources close to EU's focus group reportedly told EurActiv that France and Italy expressed safety concerns over Germany's plug design. The German connector was expected to be adopted as the European standard, but the French and Italians blocked it for reasons that are thought to extend beyond the plug itself. EurActiv reports that an undisclosed source with close ties to the EU's focus group said that the scuffle, "is very regrettable and it is clear that industrial interests are at stake."
I do but someday I'll drive a vehicle with a DC port as well my kids.TonyWilliams said:Don't you drive a Volt, which has no DC port?
You are absolutely correct. Thanks. My post has been updated.TonyWilliams said:Do some research please, before making unfounded assumptions.
Well that is one of the points of the SAE design, if you're doing L2 you just use the existing L2 plug. You only handle the bigger version if you're QCing.Nubo said:... As far as aesthetics I'd much rather deal with the smaller J1772 plug which I'll be using far more often than DC-QC, even if it were available. ...
TRONZ said:After the $100,000,000 bombshell in CA today, any manufacturer that does not have a significant number of QC EV's on the road in 12-18 months is going to be VERY late to the party.
I am sure they will leave some room for SAE units... whenever a significant number of those cars show up.
scottf200 said:I do but someday I'll drive a vehicle with a DC port as well my kids.TonyWilliams said:Don't you drive a Volt, which has no DC port?
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