Tesla Supercharger Network

[GRA]

As of 7/23/14, for some strange reason an SC with four stalls in Billings, MT, is now listed and mapped. It can't be reached from either Rapid City, SD or Lusk, WY, the two nearest SCs, so presumably one or more SCs in between are underway. Total U.S. SCs now 32/102/641.

If you set the slider on Tesla's official Supercharger map to the 2014 scale, you can see that Billings is part of the route from Washington state to the existing I-90 route by traveling through Idaho and Montana. This path will allow those travelers from Washington to avoid heading South through California to start their cross country journeys. It's just the first Supercharger on the route, so it's out in the middle of no where. Sort like what happened with that first I-90 Supercharger out in the middle of nowhere South Dakota and the first I-70 Supercharger in Goodland, KS. The holes quickly filled in around them and the oddball loner location was quickly forgotten as being an oddity.

I know that's the plan, but as has been discussed at length up thread, finishing off I-90 in the northwest while far more frequently traveled routes serving much more Tesla-populated areas remain uncompleted is ridiculous. Especially given that the rate of SC openings in the U.S. has fallen so far behind the pace needed to reach the end of 2014 totals Tesla shows on their map. Meanwhile, European SCs have been opening at a pace rivaling the sprint to get the first transcontinental route (aka "The Musk Family Adventure") finished.

The fact that Billings is complete and St. George has just started construction says everything that needs to be said about Tesla's screwed up priorities, especially given the number of owners who would have used St. George on their way to/from Tesla Connect. Indio, Oxnard and Greenville are seemingly stalled and El Centro hasn't advanced beyond a permit for over three months, there doesn't seem to be much happening on I-70 east of Salina other than a permit for Dayton (a good choice), nothing along I-75 in Florida that we know of, Texas is still an island, etc. Arizona has been getting some love, at least, and Tifton was helpful, as will be The Dalles. Permits for Atlanta and Chattanooga are better late than never, and presumably DeFuniak Springs is the start of a route to New Orleans on I-10. Edison, Whitehall and South Hill are all good locations, which again should be much higher priorities than I-90 across Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. AFAICS, the sole purpose of Squamish is to allow people coming up from Burlington to get to Whistler, because it's too close to Vancouver to be useful for much else.

 

[NYR4EV]

New to the forum after following for several months. I'm a big fan of both Tesla and Leaf and follow both of their forums. I don't own an ev now but hopefully someday. To answer what you said about Tesla priorities, I think that it has to do with ease of getting permits. I was on a Tesla forum a permit application for the Billings supercharger that was filed and approved with a months with constructions authorized for beginning of July. That supercharger must have been constructed in less than two weeks. Seems that some municipalities put a lot of road blocks, like Edison, NJ which had to have several hearings and I'm the town is the reason the supercharger being constructed is not done yet.

 

[GRA]

New to the forum after following for several months. I'm a big fan of both Tesla and Leaf and follow both of their forums. I don't own an ev now but hopefully someday. To answer what you said about Tesla priorities, I think that it has to do with ease of getting permits. I was on a Tesla forum a permit application for the Billings supercharger that was filed and approved with a months with constructions authorized for beginning of July. That supercharger must have been constructed in less than two weeks. Seems that some municipalities put a lot of road blocks, like Edison, NJ which had to have several hearings and I'm the town is the reason the supercharger being constructed is not done yet.

Yes, permits advance at different rates, the issue is where are you trying to get the permits in the first place? Last year, Tesla was getting permits for I-90 across southern Minnesota, South Dakota and eastern Wyoming, instead of applying for them in more heavily populated (by people and Teslas) and more heavily traveled areas. The fact that they only applied for permits this year for Roseville, Truckee and Manteca, despite the fact that the Bay Area has the largest collection of Teslas in the world and Lake Tahoe and Yosemite are frequent weekend destinations, is an example of what I mean by out of whack priorities. You can find similar concerns expressed over on TMC by others.

As I've opined up thread, if anyone is looking for a section of I-90 to put SCs on, the section from Cleveland to Boston should be far higher priority than that in the northwest, seeing as how New York ranks just after California in the number of Teslas sold (Florida is third). Anyway, this was all debated in depth here, if you're interested. Start on page 41 of this thread and read up to about page 60.

Since there's not much happening with U.S. superchargers today, here's a related trivia question. Tesla has an SC in Milford, Connecticut. Today is the birthday of someone born in Milford who played a major role in electrifying transportation in this country and the rest of the world. Name him. (No points if you use your computer to find the info, but here's a hint: Richmond, VA).

 

[GRA]

Since there's not much happening with U.S. superchargers today, here's a related trivia question. Tesla has an SC in Milford, Connecticut. Today is the birthday of someone born in Milford who played a major role in electrifying transportation in this country and the rest of the world. Name him. (No points if you use your computer to find the info, but here's a hint: Richmond, VA).

The answer to yesterday's trivia quiz (not surprised no one knew it, or maybe no one could be bothered, but he should be far better known) is Frank Julian Sprague, July 25, 1857 - October 25, 1934:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_J._Sprague" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[apvbguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_J._Sprague" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

way way too geeky!

 

[GRA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_J._Sprague" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

way way too geeky!

Nah, knowing about Tesla before the car company was geeky (guilty), Sprague was a practical engineer who finished projects and made them pay!

 

[GRA]

As of 8/4/14, The Dalles, OR with 5 stalls is listed and mapped (reported open by site owner on 8/1, but no usage reported in the interim). Total U.S. SCs now 32/103/646.

Most recent full list here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=690" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Master list showing all locations, plus opening dates after 1/14 can be found here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=670" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As of 8/7/14, South Hill, VA with 6 stalls is listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 32/104/652.

Most recent full list here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=690

Master list showing all locations, plus opening dates after 1/14 can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=670

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

insideevs has a video/story from Norway, and many threads on Tesla Forums illustrate the obvious.

If you want to insure that the delivery of a valuable commodity is unreliable, make it "free".

With 3,134 Tesla Model S sedans sold in Norway in the first 6 months of 2014, the Model S population is growing rapidly in the Nordic country. In fact, the Model s population is growing so rapidly that the 10 Superchargers in Norway are now becoming overcrowded...

http://insideevs.com/tesla-superchargers-norway-getting-overcrowded-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why more superchargers alone can't prevent overcrowding

Every time when there is a discussion about the future of superchargers and how they will cope with increasing number of Teslas, a few people jump in and say more stations will be built and it will be just fine. But when you think about the details that doesn't make sense. There is no way adding more stations can prevent extreme wait times. I'll explain why...

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32713-Why-more-superchargers-alone-can-t-prevent-overcrowding" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After 1500 miles and 4 stops at the Newark Delaware Supercharger I have a significant concern about the supercharger network and the predictability of using the Supercharger network as a critical component enabling all electric vehicles as a full substitute for ICE vehicles...

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/2a5ymp/my_experience_with_superchargers_a_concern_after/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, Tesla certainly doesn't hold a patent on stupidity, in this regard.

I took My LEAF on a four day ~600 mile trip to the SF bay area recently, recharging en-route eleven times, with nine of the charges at five different public sites.

Five charges I paid for, no waiting.

I had to wait for two of the four "free" charges and both times I was blocked (and had to leave with less-than-optimum SOC) it was obvious that the BEV/PHEVs squatting at the sites would not have been there, if they had been required to pay.

 

[apvbguy]

IMHO: the DE SC is problematic because there are only 4 chargers, it is a long distance southbound to the next one that is either a temp one in Bethesda or one in woodbridge VA south of DC. the next one north bound, Hamilton NJ, isn't too far up the line but by the time North bound travelers get from VA or Bethesda to DE they are probably needing a charge.
the DE location is also at the gateway to the Philadelphia, NYC, Boston Megalopolis. and if you stray west from I95 there aren't many choices to SC.
Tesla needs to fill in the void on I-95 with a SC north of Baltimore and increase capacity at Newark DE.

 

[GRA]

insideevs has a video/story from Norway, and many threads on Tesla Forums illustrate the obvious.

If you want to insure that the delivery of a valuable commodity is unreliable, make it "free".

<snip>

BTW, Tesla certainly doesn't hold a patent on stupidity, in this regard.

I took My LEAF on a four day ~600 mile trip to the SF bay area recently, recharging en-route eleven times, with nine of the charges at five different public sites.

Five charges I paid for, no waiting.

I had to wait for two of the four "free" charges and both times I was blocked (and had to leave with less-than-optimum SOC) it was obvious that the BEV/PHEVs squatting at the sites would not have been there, if they had been required to pay.

I agree that giving electricity away free is a problem anytime there's the possibility of high utilization by locals, as is the case e.g. in Hawthorne and Fremont, and the need to locate SCs away from where large numbers of Tesla owners live and/or work is a major constraint on efficient siting of them, as major cities often have major freeway intersections. Instead of having a single SC location located at the junction of those freeways/highways, where the electrical distribution system can handle large loads, they often have to be awkwardly located on every route into/out of town. While you eventually want to multiply the number of SC locations, being forced to do so because there's no point of sale charge strikes me as the major drawback to the SC system. I think at some point Tesla will likely have to start limiting SC usage or start charging for them.

One of the suggestions made in the first thread you linked to strikes me as a good idea: limiting your usage of SCs within a certain distance of where you live, say 30 or 50 miles. As to the rest, until SCs are spaced every 30 miles or so along Interstates and primary highways, as gas stations are now, I don't think we'll see a problem. It's necessary now to leave home with a full charge, but I don't always do so on road trips because I often stop an hour or so out to gas up where it's cheaper, delaying my refueling before the trip so I can buy the most gas at the lowest price. And on-board updates/reservations should be able to distribute the usage if necessary. Of course, that assumes that SCs will always allow fast charging.

On heavily traveled out and back routes like SF-LA and LA-Vegas battery swap (leaving and retrieving your own battery) may be the way to go, but in the meantime many heavily-used SCs like Barstow and Gilroy are having or have had the # of SCs increased.

Put it this way - per Wiki, as of 2012 there were 47,714 miles of interstate. For the sake of argument assume that secondary (three digit) interstates, i.e. loops/spurs/bypasses, don't need to be covered as they're generally short and urban, and that the mileage of primary (one and two digit) interstates is 45,000 (I couldn't find mileage data broken down by type). At the moment there are 104 SC locations in the U.S. To cover the entire primary interstate system at an average spacing of 100 miles will take 450 SC locations, every 50 miles will require 900 and every 30 miles, 1,500.

Doubling that latter number to 3,000 to allow covering major U.S. and state highways may be adequate, but let's boost it to 5,000 just to give us some wiggle room. This is still only around 1/20th of the number of gas stations currently in the U.S., so I don't see this as being a significant problem for some time, provided Tesla keeps building them at an adequate pace (which they currently aren't), or else if they provide low-cost converters for CCS and/or CHAdeMO.

[Edit]: For more detailed calcs of the required installation rates, see

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34450-Extant-Vehicles-Supercharger-Numbers-and-Distribution" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The problem will come in when they try to sell the Model III against competition - adding $2k up front to the price of a $70k car isn't that big a deal to the typical buyer, but adding it to the price of a $35k car is a lot more significant, especially when competing against ICEs/HEVs/PHEVs, and potentially FCEVs.

 

[abasile]

One of the suggestions made in the first thread you linked to strikes me as a good idea: limiting your usage of SCs within a certain distance of where you live, say 30 or 50 miles.

This suggestion has some merit, but it's not necessarily cut and dried. There are legitimate uses of free, "local" Superchargers.

What if you're on the return from a long trip and need just a bit more juice to finish the drive home? In my own situation, if I were to drive a Tesla to somewhere in Los Angeles, take care of some business and errands, then head back up to the San Bernardino Mountains where I live, I might want to stop at a "local" Supercharger in Ontario, CA, Redlands, CA, or thereabouts before making the 5000' climb.

Or, what if you've just returned from a long day of shuttling around, and need to charge quickly on the way out to an overnight destination?

Or, what if you've just taken delivery of a new Tesla, or just moved to a new house, and need a few days or weeks to make electrical upgrades, get permits, etc.?

Maybe the solution is to allow a certain amount (kWh) and frequency of local Supercharging, then charge a bank card for the "excess".

Or maybe, beyond a certain grace period, require that each owner gain access to regular home and/or workplace charging in order to continue Supercharging locally for free. Those without access to regular L2 would pay reasonable fees to Supercharge locally. I think I like this option.

 

[GRA]

One of the suggestions made in the first thread you linked to strikes me as a good idea: limiting your usage of SCs within a certain distance of where you live, say 30 or 50 miles.

This suggestion has some merit, but it's not necessarily cut and dried. There are legitimate uses of free, "local" Superchargers.

What if you're on the return from a long trip and need just a bit more juice to finish the drive home? In my own situation, if I were to drive a Tesla to somewhere in Los Angeles, take care of some business and errands, then head back up to the San Bernardino Mountains where I live, I might want to stop at a "local" Supercharger in Ontario, CA, Redlands, CA, or thereabouts before making the 5000' climb.

Or, what if you've just returned from a long day of shuttling around, and need to charge quickly on the way out to an overnight destination?

Or, what if you've just taken delivery of a new Tesla, or just moved to a new house, and need a few days or weeks to make electrical upgrades, get permits, etc.?

Maybe the solution is to allow a certain amount (kWh) and frequency of local Supercharging, then charge a bank card for the "excess".

Or maybe, beyond a certain grace period, require that each owner gain access to regular home and/or workplace charging in order to continue Supercharging locally for free. Those without access to regular L2 would pay reasonable fees to Supercharge locally. I think I like this option.

The sentence I bolded is what I had in mind when I wrote "limiting your usage", i.e. not a complete ban (for the reasons you state), but allowing just a limited amount of 'free' charging at your local SC. The intent is to prevent cheapskate locals from camping out at the SCs every day. Say 10 or 20 usages a year free, or maybe tiered packages for condo/townhouse owners without access. But I suspect that this last is unlikely to be needed - anyone who can afford a Tesla can probably choose to live somewhere where there's public L2, or they can just offer to pay to install a circuit. We'd have to see how that goes, but compared to more mass market PEVs, Tesla owners generally can afford more options in their living arrangements.

 

[abasile]

The sentence I bolded is what I had in mind when I wrote "limiting your usage", i.e. not a complete ban (for the reasons you state), but allowing just a limited amount of 'free' charging at your local SC. The intent is to prevent cheapskate locals from camping out at the SCs every day. Say 10 or 20 usages a year free, or maybe tiered packages for condo/townhouse owners without access. But I suspect that this last is unlikely to be needed - anyone who can afford a Tesla can probably choose to live somewhere where there's public L2, or they can just offer to pay to install a circuit. We'd have to see how that goes, but compared to more mass market PEVs, Tesla owners generally can afford more options in their living arrangements.

I agree that Tesla is going to have to consider these options. The Tesla Model III will almost certainly force the issue, assuming all goes well and it is truly a mass market car. The Model III demographic, if anything, will probably be much broader than today's LEAF demographic.

One nitpick: Counting sessions is IMHO less desirable than counting kWh and/or time connected. I think the LEAF community's experience with public CHAdeMO has demonstrated that.

 

[lorenfb]

"The Model III demographic, if anything, will probably be much broader than today's LEAF demographic"

Really? And what do you base this statement on, i.e. the "Model III" not even having been partially defined
other than a target price and range? Have to love those that continue to believe that Tesla is/will be the
'savior' for the BEV market, though!

 

[kieranmullen]

How is it obvious which ones are squatting if you are just passing through? Perhaps they just finished?

It is better to have more locations than adding infinite capacity at the SC because people are too cheap to charge at home.

insideevs has a video/story from Norway, and many threads on Tesla Forums illustrate the obvious.

If you want to insure that the delivery of a valuable commodity is unreliable, make it "free".

With 3,134 Tesla Model S sedans sold in Norway in the first 6 months of 2014, the Model S population is growing rapidly in the Nordic country. In fact, the Model s population is growing so rapidly that the 10 Superchargers in Norway are now becoming overcrowded...

http://insideevs.com/tesla-superchargers-norway-getting-overcrowded-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why more superchargers alone can't prevent overcrowding

Every time when there is a discussion about the future of superchargers and how they will cope with increasing number of Teslas, a few people jump in and say more stations will be built and it will be just fine. But when you think about the details that doesn't make sense. There is no way adding more stations can prevent extreme wait times. I'll explain why...

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32713-Why-more-superchargers-alone-can-t-prevent-overcrowding" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After 1500 miles and 4 stops at the Newark Delaware Supercharger I have a significant concern about the supercharger network and the predictability of using the Supercharger network as a critical component enabling all electric vehicles as a full substitute for ICE vehicles...

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/2a5ymp/my_experience_with_superchargers_a_concern_after/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, Tesla certainly doesn't hold a patent on stupidity, in this regard.

I took My LEAF on a four day ~600 mile trip to the SF bay area recently, recharging en-route eleven times, with nine of the charges at five different public sites.

Five charges I paid for, no waiting.

I had to wait for two of the four "free" charges and both times I was blocked (and had to leave with less-than-optimum SOC) it was obvious that the BEV/PHEVs squatting at the sites would not have been there, if they had been required to pay.

 

[Berlino]

Or, what if you've just taken delivery of a new Tesla, or just moved to a new house, and need a few days or weeks to make electrical upgrades, get permits, etc.?

What if you live in an apartment or condo with no access to 240v?

In most places, there's no law requiring condo boards to approve EVSE installations and in some places people don't have an assigned spot anywhere near a suitable source of electricity. Apparently, this is why you're seeing Superchargers in places like Hong Kong and Shanghai.

 

[GRA]

"The Model III demographic, if anything, will probably be much broader than today's LEAF demographic"

Really? And what do you base this statement on, i.e. the "Model III" not even having been partially defined
other than a target price and range? Have to love those that continue to believe that Tesla is/will be the
'savior' for the BEV market, though!

ISTM the rationale is obvious enough. Assuming that the Model III meets its price and range specs (IMO a big 'if' for the former), it will sell for about what the LEAF did when it was introduced, but can serve many people as their sole car, thus vastly improving the cost/capability equation.

 

[GRA]

Or, what if you've just taken delivery of a new Tesla, or just moved to a new house, and need a few days or weeks to make electrical upgrades, get permits, etc.?

What if you live in an apartment or condo with no access to 240v?

In most places, there's no law requiring condo boards to approve EVSE installations and in some places people don't have an assigned spot anywhere near a suitable source of electricity. Apparently, this is why you're seeing Superchargers in places like Hong Kong and Shanghai.

Which is why I mentioned that Tesla owners can afford more choice in their living arrangements, including choosing to live in locations which will install or allow to be installed L2 EVSEs. Model S/X owners are a desirable demographic, so don't you think property owners will accomodate them?

Of course, for those that won't and the potential Tesla owner doesn't have the option of moving, a Tesla (or other BEV) is a poor choice. An ICE/HEV or maybe an FCEV eventually makes more sense for them.

 

[GRA]

I agree that Tesla is going to have to consider these options. The Tesla Model III will almost certainly force the issue, assuming all goes well and it is truly a mass market car. The Model III demographic, if anything, will probably be much broader than today's LEAF demographic.

One nitpick: Counting sessions is IMHO less desirable than counting kWh and/or time connected. I think the LEAF community's experience with public CHAdeMO has demonstrated that.

For people touring that's true, but I'm not sure that it sends the right signal for locals. I think the intent is to keep them from using the SCs at all unless it's critical, not limit their time at the SCs. Some of the queueing theory discussions over on TMC go into the effect of additional cars on wait times.