The Battery Replacement Thread

[dhanson865]

Hello,

I own a 2011 Leaf SL and just lost my 4th bar... at 60,500 miles :-(. Nissan will not cover this under warranty and I was wondering what my options are. I wrote a letter to Dave Mazur, Vice President of Customer Quality, and did not even receive a courtesy response from him. So much for customer relations!

Since I was concerned that precisely something like this would happen, I called Leaf customer service several times before my car went over 60,000 miles asking what would happen in this situation, and all I got was vague comments like "we will take that into consideration", which I naively thought meant they would cover it under warranty.

I also took my car in to the dealer for a battery test at 59,000 miles when I was at 9 bars and all they gave me was a sheet that showed I had excellent charging and driving habits, but did not tell me anything about capacity or how close I was to losing the 4th bar. They told me it was not possible to get that information.
I used the Leaf Spy tool to collect information from my car before it reached 60,000 miles. Here is what it captured:

Bat Sts: AHR= 42.90
SOH = 65% 390.42V
Hx = 44.27%
odo = 59,898
68 QCs
3158 L1/L2s
SOC = 93.6%

From what I have read on this forum, many people have lost the 4th bar at a capacity higher than what I have. Also, the Nissan warranty letter I received says "at approximately 70% capacity", and if I read the Leaf Spy output correctly, I am at 65%. Even if I scale the SOC of 93.6% to a 100%, that gives me 65 x 100/93.6 = 69.76%.

At this point, what are my options? Can I sue Nissan for failure to honor warranty since they would not tell me what my capacity was and refuse to accept the Leaf Spy data? I think there is enough data listed on this site that bar loss is clearly not an exact indication of battery capacity. Can i complain to the NHTSA or the California BBB or other such organization?

If there are other owners who are also in this situation, perhaps we can collectively consider some action? I'm sure Nissan is not looking forward to yet another class action suit. I'm really upset because I called their customer service beforehand and they just gave me a false sense of belief that they would cover my battery under warranty if it lost the 4th bar so close to the mileage limit!

Welcome to mynissanleaf.com I'd suggest you read http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19880 to see the only case I've seen so far of someone successfully appealing a warranty denial do to mileage.

 

[Stanton]

I used the Leaf Spy tool to collect information from my car before it reached 60,000 miles. Here is what it captured:

Bat Sts: AHR= 42.90
SOH = 65% 390.42V
Hx = 44.27%
odo = 59,898
68 QCs
3158 L1/L2s
SOC = 93.6%

What where the readings when you actually lost the 4th bar?

 

[clarke]

I lost my 4th bar today.

Date: 3/11 (off of door jamb)
Mileage: < 39,000

I just ordered the ODBII/wifi and will update with Leaf Spy numbers when it comes in.

Sigh, and this is a month after I had to threaten to sue the dealer for not covering the "diode problem" with the OBC (on board charger).

 

[sats0]

I used the Leaf Spy tool to collect information from my car before it reached 60,000 miles. Here is what it captured:

Bat Sts: AHR= 42.90
SOH = 65% 390.42V
Hx = 44.27%
odo = 59,898
68 QCs
3158 L1/L2s
SOC = 93.6%

What where the readings when you actually lost the 4th bar?

I don't have the readings immediately after I lost the 4th bar but here they are after approximately 1,800 more miles:

AHr = 42.56
SOH = 64% 389.06V
Hx = 43.71%
odo = 61,614
76 QCs
3266 L1/L2s
SOC = 92.7%

 

[sats0]

Hello,

I own a 2011 Leaf SL and just lost my 4th bar... at 60,500 miles :-(. Nissan will not cover this under warranty and I was wondering what my options are. I wrote a letter to Dave Mazur, Vice President of Customer Quality, and did not even receive a courtesy response from him. So much for customer relations!

Since I was concerned that precisely something like this would happen, I called Leaf customer service several times before my car went over 60,000 miles asking what would happen in this situation, and all I got was vague comments like "we will take that into consideration", which I naively thought meant they would cover it under warranty.

I also took my car in to the dealer for a battery test at 59,000 miles when I was at 9 bars and all they gave me was a sheet that showed I had excellent charging and driving habits, but did not tell me anything about capacity or how close I was to losing the 4th bar. They told me it was not possible to get that information.
I used the Leaf Spy tool to collect information from my car before it reached 60,000 miles. Here is what it captured:

Bat Sts: AHR= 42.90
SOH = 65% 390.42V
Hx = 44.27%
odo = 59,898
68 QCs
3158 L1/L2s
SOC = 93.6%

From what I have read on this forum, many people have lost the 4th bar at a capacity higher than what I have. Also, the Nissan warranty letter I received says "at approximately 70% capacity", and if I read the Leaf Spy output correctly, I am at 65%. Even if I scale the SOC of 93.6% to a 100%, that gives me 65 x 100/93.6 = 69.76%.

At this point, what are my options? Can I sue Nissan for failure to honor warranty since they would not tell me what my capacity was and refuse to accept the Leaf Spy data? I think there is enough data listed on this site that bar loss is clearly not an exact indication of battery capacity. Can i complain to the NHTSA or the California BBB or other such organization?

If there are other owners who are also in this situation, perhaps we can collectively consider some action? I'm sure Nissan is not looking forward to yet another class action suit. I'm really upset because I called their customer service beforehand and they just gave me a false sense of belief that they would cover my battery under warranty if it lost the 4th bar so close to the mileage limit!

Welcome to mynissanleaf.com I'd suggest you read http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19880 to see the only case I've seen so far of someone successfully appealing a warranty denial do to mileage.

Thank you for the link. I intend to pursue this with the BBB as well. I am really disappointed with NIssan, especially since their customer service kept reassuring me that they would take into account at what point I lost the 4th bar. I followed all their recommendations for extending battery life. I also directly influenced at least 3 other people into buying a Leaf. Now I make sure I relate my bad experience with their customer service, and considering the reduced range on my Leaf I'm at the charging stations a lot!

Thanks again for the link.

 

[Valdemar]

I was able to get a bit more miles out of my pack before it dropped to 8 bars but still very unhappy, will be opening a case with BBB soon. I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again. Frankly I think the BBB route is a better bet. Question is how much longer will they be playing nice and honor BBB decisions if they keep losing these cases.

 

[sats0]

I was able to get a bit more miles out of my pack before it dropped to 8 bars but still very unhappy, will be opening a case with BBB soon. I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again. Frankly I think the BBB route is a better bet. Question is how much longer will they be playing nice and honor BBB decisions if they keep losing these cases.

One angle I was thinking of exploring was the letter I got about the first settlement states loss of 4 bars which should be "approximately 70% of capacity". But no one has explained to me exactly what triggers the 4 bar to drop and what other factors influence it besides just capacity loss. If there are other factors that influence it then those should be removed from the equation.

I took my car in to the dealer at 59,500 miles and asked him to tell me how much capacity the battery had. He performed the standard battery test and told me I had excellent driving and charging habits but it was not possible for him to tell me how much capacity I had. So I used the LeafSpy and it showed 65%. When I called their customer service hotline they said they do not recognize any 3rd party tools. So how is a customer supposed to know what his battery capacity is if Nissan won't tell him, the bars have other factors influencing them, and they won't accept the LeafSpy readouts???

 

[GetOffYourGas]

their customer service kept reassuring me that they would take into account at what point I lost the 4th bar

I hate to be the cynic here, but it sounds like this is exactly what Nissan did. They took into account that you lost the 4th bar after 60,000 miles and therefore don't qualify for the letter of their warranty.

 

[leafkabob]

I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again.

Actually, I could see an entirely new class action made up of all of the people who missed out on qualifying for the warranty, IF (and this is a huge IF) someone uncovers any evidence that Nissan rigged the 4th bar so that it hung on much longer than the other bars.

Had the VW scandal not happened I wouldn't have really considered that Nissan could have done that. But now, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[sub3marathonman]

I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again.

Actually, I could see an entirely new class action made up of all of the people who missed out on qualifying for the warranty, IF (and this is a huge IF) someone uncovers any evidence that Nissan rigged the 4th bar so that it hung on much longer than the other bars.

Had the VW scandal not happened I wouldn't have really considered that Nissan could have done that. But now, it wouldn't surprise me.

This, and sats0's and zhang000's plight have inspired what will be called the "LEAFysburg Address," which is an attempt to wittily frame the absurdity of Nissan's position, and as a disclaimer is in no way an attempt to diminish or disparage the great Gettysburg Address spoken by Abraham Lincoln.

Four Capacity Squares, and just over sixty thousand miles ago, Nissan Corporation brought forth upon this continent a new vehicle, conceived in electricity, and dedicated to the proposition that no man or woman would ever need to stop at the gas station again.

Now we are engaged in a great civil case, testing whether this corporation, or any corporation, can deceive and obfuscate and still endure. We are met on a great forum of that war. We have come to debate whether an 80 percent remaining capacity promise after five years can be replaced by a lowly trinket of a $50 charging card. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this, as the settlement was grossly unfair to those unfortunate people with a hanging capacity square.

But in a larger sense, we can not dedicate - we cannot consecrate - we can not hallow - this battery situation that Tony Williams and the Phoenix Dozen exposed. The brave batteries, some living but most of them dead, who struggled to push the car just over sixty thousand miles, have consecrated it far above our poor court's opinion of fairness. The world will little note, nor long remember, what Nissan says here, but we can never forget what they did here. It is for us, the consumers, rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which the plaintiff's attorneys have so ignobly allowed. It is for us rather to be dedicated here to the great task remaining before us - that from these dead batteries we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave far less than what Nissan promised would be their last full measure of devotion - that we here highly resolve that these deceived consumers shall not have been deceived in vain - that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of equity, and that public court of opinion, of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth, but rather pressure Nissan to resolve the situation fairly.

 

[91040]

If I remember accurately, as a member of the class action, you gave up all rights to sue Nissan on any matters pertaining to battery capacity.

By the way: Love the parody. Bravo!

I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again.

Actually, I could see an entirely new class action made up of all of the people who missed out on qualifying for the warranty, IF (and this is a huge IF) someone uncovers any evidence that Nissan rigged the 4th bar so that it hung on much longer than the other bars.

Had the VW scandal not happened I wouldn't have really considered that Nissan could have done that. But now, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[TimLee]

... One angle I was thinking of exploring was the letter I got about the first settlement states loss of 4 bars which should be "approximately 70% of capacity". But no one has explained to me exactly what triggers the 4 bar to drop and what other factors influence it besides just capacity loss. ...

The 70% was just another Nissan round the number up to the nearest 10% lie.
Four bar loss is nominally 66.25% capacity per Nissan statements at dinner in August 2013.
But there is a lot of slowness in the bars.
You may have been below 66.25% before 60,000 miles.
But with incompetent plaintiffs and their incompetent class action attornies the Class got stuck with an incompetent capacity warranty.
And somehow Nissan thinks that is OK.
Same incompetent capacity warranty that Nissan provides for 2013 LEAF forward including 2016.
All based on ill defined bars and no discovery of how they decide to turn them off.
Just downright incompetent
(unless your goal is to unfairly refuse to repair or replace defective packs).

You might try multiple complaint letters to Nissan senior management.
Someone reported in another thread they managed to get a big enough list and write enough letters that Nissan senior executive was tired of hearing about it and gave in and replaced their battery.

 

[mwalsh]

I've always thought the capacity warranty was a cleverly thought-out gambit, designed to see most owners fall just outside of the date or mileage cutoffs. However, it seems to be shaking out that many (if not most) owners will be just inside, with only a few of those you'd expect to qualify missing out by a few miles or few weeks.

If I was right all along, someone at Nissan must really be shedding a tear this month. If I was wrong, then I probably owe Nissan an apology.

Obviously, still holding out hope for Karl, since he's up against the clock running out for him in early January. COME ON KARL!

 

[BudRaymond]

can take "up to 6 weeks". :|

I'm over 3 weeks in, and the dealer has no idea how long a slow boat from Japan will take. But my battery is definitely on its way from Japan.

 

[GRA]

In that vein, Nissan's mantra: With malice for all, with charity towards none.

 

[kolmstead]

Thanks for the support, Mike! In case anyone wonders what the fuss is about, Mike and I were very early adopters. He got his Leaf on January 5, 2011 and I got mine on the 15th. Serial numbers 213 and 257, respectively. What that means is that we only have about two and a half months left on the 60 month battery capacity warranty. Mike's car qualified last week, Also in the running is Stanton, down in Texas, who is a few weeks behind me in battery degradation, but has a little more time left on his warranty.

Not a lot of news here. saw 42.43 Ahr and 43.49% Hx last night; 42.50 Ahr and 43.61% Hx tonight. Unusual for me to see an upwards jump of + 0.07 Ahr in one day since I run the same route virtually every day and check battery stats at the end of my drive. So maybe it's the start of the "twitchy" readings or plateau that mwalsh saw before his ninth bar dropped. I only saw 181 GIDs at full charge this morning, but I see some loss every fall as the battery cools off. Had only four battery temp bars when I started out Monday morning. We're having 45 degree nights. Did get battery up to 84-87 degrees the past two days before I ran out of range. As long as we're seeing 70s to 80s during the day I'll keep expecting to see ninth bar drop. Once it starts freezing hard at night, I'll start worrying and wishing I had a heated garage.

-Karl

 

[leafkabob]

If I remember accurately, as a member of the class action, you gave up all rights to sue Nissan on any matters pertaining to battery capacity.

By the way: Love the parody. Bravo!

I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again.

Actually, I could see an entirely new class action made up of all of the people who missed out on qualifying for the warranty, IF (and this is a huge IF) someone uncovers any evidence that Nissan rigged the 4th bar so that it hung on much longer than the other bars.

Had the VW scandal not happened I wouldn't have really considered that Nissan could have done that. But now, it wouldn't surprise me.

Members of that class gave up the right to sue over battery capacity, but not IF (remember that was a huge IF) evidence was found that Nissan rigged the bars to drop at much lower percentage than "approximately 70%." If Nissan did a VW on their software, for example, that would be an entirely new issue to sue over. They can't claim that you gave up your right to sue them for fraud simply because you didn't know they were committing fraud the first time around. Keep in mind I'm only using that as an example. I don't know what Nissan has done regarding their software surrounding the bars dropping.

 

[dm33]

Once it starts freezing hard at night, I'll start worrying and wishing I had a heated garage.

Use the car's heater to heat up the garage. Open the windows and run heat. Lets you cycle the battery more without adding miles. Running defrost with AC and heat uses up even more electricity and should end up providing even more net heating. Keep the battery either at 100% or very low. Does Nissan complain if you reach turtle too often? Can they deny a battery warranty for that?

 

[sats0]

I don't think another lawsuit is possible as unless someone has opted out we are members of the class and lost our rights to sue them again.

Actually, I could see an entirely new class action made up of all of the people who missed out on qualifying for the warranty, IF (and this is a huge IF) someone uncovers any evidence that Nissan rigged the 4th bar so that it hung on much longer than the other bars.

Had the VW scandal not happened I wouldn't have really considered that Nissan could have done that. But now, it wouldn't surprise me.

I feel Nissan should be obligated to tell its customers exactly what causes the 4th bar to drop. And since they are warrantying capacity, anything that affects the 4th bar that is not directly related to capacity should be removed for warranty determination purposes. The class action settlement also says battery capacity is warranted to "approximately 70% capacity" and we know that when the 4th bar drops, it is WELL below 70% capacity. In fact, 70% capacity is closer to when the 3rd bar drops.

It's interesting to note the wording on the settlement letter (emphasis added by me): "In addition to the existing lithium-ion battery coverage provided under the Nissan Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty for defects i materials or workmanship, the lithium-ion battery for your 2011 or 2012 Nissan LEAF is now also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars (or approximately below 70 percent) as shown on the vehicle's battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first."

So I think NIssan IS playing games by equating "below 9 bars" to 8 bars by actually only warrantying capacity loss to closer to 65% rather than 70%.

 

[mwalsh]

I feel Nissan should be obligated to tell its customers exactly what causes the 4th bar to drop. And since they are warrantying capacity, anything that affects the 4th bar that is not directly related to capacity should be removed for warranty determination purposes. The class action settlement also says battery capacity is warranted to "approximately 70% capacity" and we know that when the 4th bar drops, it is WELL below 70% capacity. In fact, 70% capacity is closer to when the 3rd bar drops.

+1.

Playing Devil's advocate, I can see why Nissan chose "below 9 bars" - it gives the dealer something easily verifiable to work with, rather than having an owner turn up regularly following the loss of bar 10 to see if he qualifies yet.