Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[Valdemar]

I'm curious if the BMS has any calibration based on real data to work more or less properly with severely degraded batteries. I wouldn't be surprised that anything below 70% hasn't been tested by Nissan.

 

[mctom987]

So maybe you'd have lower acceleration at 5 bars remaining (7 bars lost) but the car would still be drivable?

Maybe the worst thing about a 6 or 7 bar loser would be no turtle mode. As in the car would still drive but it might go from 5 miles remaining to stuck on the side of the road in a quarter mile because the pack drop off is more severe? Maybe the car would skip the VLBW if the pack is degraded enough?

That was pretty much my understanding of it. I don't think it will even be that measurable though.
I usually use ~15kW max sustained power, which is WELL under the specs. The peak power rating for a full, new battery is almost 220kW. Even at 50% capacity, this would still be over 100kW, still exceeding the Leaf's 80kW motor rating.

The BMS would probably have a harder time accurately measuring each cell, but the GOM is already wildly inaccurate. What's a little more inaccuracy?

I think a bigger problem might be the cell voltage. I don't know much about this, but I'm pretty sure the voltage drops. A new cell has a fully charged voltage at 4.2V. Does one with 70% life have a full charge at 3.9V or something similar?

 

[DaveInAvl]

I wouldn't be surprised that anything below 70% hasn't been tested by Nissan.

My hunch, based on nothing other than intuition, is that they would have done testing-to-failure on the battery packs, if only for reassurance that nothing (externally) catastrophic happens. And absent such testing, how would they have known that packs no longer desirable for automotive use were still suitable for stationary power?

 

[TomT]

It has already been proven that a number of "givens" that were espoused by Nissan regarding the battery have turned out to be wrong so I wouldn't take such proclamations as gospel...

And absent such testing, how would they have known that packs no longer desirable for automotive use were still suitable for stationary power?

 

[foolios]

Any update on improving the heat resistance of the battery? Looks like the current ones are good for about three years here, and now we have a number... almost $2000/year for batteries. Even if electricity is free, I'll be spending more on batteries than I would on gas if that's all the longer they last.

Mr Brockman did confirm that this is the more durable chemistry that goes in the 2015 models.

I know the answer is somewhere in this lengthy thread but I'm gonna short circuit to an answer.
Q: 2013 S version Leaf with no upgrades; will it be able to take on this new 2015 battery and it's extended range?

 

[JPWhite]

Any update on improving the heat resistance of the battery? Looks like the current ones are good for about three years here, and now we have a number... almost $2000/year for batteries. Even if electricity is free, I'll be spending more on batteries than I would on gas if that's all the longer they last.

Mr Brockman did confirm that this is the more durable chemistry that goes in the 2015 models.

I know the answer is somewhere in this lengthy thread but I'm gonna short circuit to an answer.
Q: 2013 S version Leaf with no upgrades; will it be able to take on this new 2015 battery and it's extended range?

The battery should fit fine since it is the same form factor as was introduced in 2013.

Don't expect any extra range. EPA ratings differ between models because of the way the EPA changed their calculations of range in 2013, 80% charge level was eliminated in 2014/5 models to ensure the maximum EPA range would be reported, the cars should go the same distance on the same charge.

 

[kubel]

I know the answer is somewhere in this lengthy thread but I'm gonna short circuit to an answer.
Q: 2013 S version Leaf with no upgrades; will it be able to take on this new 2015 battery and it's extended range?

The 2015 battery has comparable range to the 2013 battery. Yes, it can take the new 2015 battery.

Expectations are that it won't be until 2017 that a new larger capacity pack will be available. It remains unlikely that this new pack will be backwards compatible, since the LEAF will probably see a refresh at the platform level.

 

[nosuchthing]

Hopefully by then the "old" lizard battery will be half off for us '11 and '12 owners...

 

[Stanton]

Expectations are that it won't be until 2017 that a new larger capacity pack will be available. It remains unlikely that this new pack will be backwards compatible, since the LEAF will probably see a refresh at the platform level.

I wouldn't bet on it. Nissan didn't spend Bi$$ions on developing batteries AND an EV platform not to maintain the form/fit/function of at least the battery module. They may pack more (or less) capacity into a given cell, and/or more (or less) modules in a battery pack, but I think one of the strengths of the Leaf platform is that battery packs will be available for years to come. Now, if Nissan chooses to sell an "upgraded" battery pack to older cars/platforms is another question, but they've already demonstrated good will with the ability to retrofit the 2015 "hot pack" battery into older Leafs (via an adapter kit when necessary).

 

[KJD]

Did you guys see the battery replacement video. This guy claims that they are now putting in the 2015 Lizard battery as replacements. At least thats what he says they put in his car.
http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/07/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-repair-whats-involved/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Did you guys see the battery replacement video. This guy claims that they are now putting in the 2015 Lizard battery as replacements. At least thats what he says they put in his car.
http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/07/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-repair-whats-involved/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is this the guy in OC? he got a lizard battery replaced under warranty with like 46,000 miles or so i think?

 

[KJD]

Did you guys see the battery replacement video. This guy claims that they are now putting in the 2015 Lizard battery as replacements. At least thats what he says they put in his car.
http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/07/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-repair-whats-involved/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is this the guy in OC? he got a lizard battery replaced under warranty with like 46,000 miles or so i think?

Yes I think so. It was also on Inside EVs a couple of days ago.

 

[mwalsh]

Did you guys see the battery replacement video. This guy claims that they are now putting in the 2015 Lizard battery as replacements. At least thats what he says they put in his car.
http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/07/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-repair-whats-involved/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just checked in with the guy to see if he had the B0133, and he did not opt-out of Klee. So we're no further ahead on knowing if that's really going to be an issue or not. But I am down 3 bars now, with the expectation of maybe loosing the 4th by the end of summer.

 

[GRA]

Did you guys see the battery replacement video. This guy claims that they are now putting in the 2015 Lizard battery as replacements. At least thats what he says they put in his car.
http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/07/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-repair-whats-involved/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just checked in with the guy to see if he had the B0133, and he did not opt-out of Klee. So we're no further ahead on knowing if that's really going to be an issue or not. But I am down 3 bars now, with the expectation of maybe loosing the 4th by the end of summer.

Chances are you'll be the guinea pig, and will determine whether we return to calling Nissan all sorts of names. Getting rid of B0133 is such an easy and cheap way to avoid any more damage to their reputation amongst their earliest and most vocal customers, that if the past two years hadn't happened I would never believe they would voluntarily do such a thing - I mean, look how quickly the complaints faded as soon as they announced a battery price, which they could have done just as easily in 2012 (but for a higher price) and avoided all the damage. But the past two years did happen, so I know they're fully capable of acting contrary to their own long-term interest and reputation. Have they learned the lesson, or is it back to business as usual?

 

[mwalsh]

^ Not being given a battery price was one of the 3 major reasons I opted out of Klee. The other two being the structuring of the warranty so it would likely exclude many on the cusp of being eligible and the notion that it was defective materials responsible for the losses rather than anything else (lack of ceramic separator and poor choice of electrolyte), so the battery really should have been covered under the existing materials/workmanship warranty.

 

[WetEV]

look how quickly the complaints faded as soon as they announced a battery price, which they could have done just as easily in 2012 (but for a higher price) and avoided all the damage.

Yes, and even at same price they might have sold one or two batteries. Or none.

 

[jhm614]

^ Not being given a battery price was one of the 3 major reasons I opted out of Klee. The other two being the structuring of the warranty so it would likely exclude many on the cusp of being eligible and the notion that it was defective materials responsible for the losses rather than anything else (lack of ceramic separator and poor choice of electrolyte), so the battery really should have been covered under the existing materials/workmanship warranty.

I thought the reason to opt out of any class action was to retain your right to sue - either individually or in another class?

 

[TimLee]

I thought the reason to opt out of any class action was to retain your right to sue - either individually or in another class?

Technically it did that, but not the reason for most that opted out.
Most wanted to stop the court accepting the class.
But that did not work. There just weren't enough knowledgeable customers willing to take the time and effort and some small risk to Opt out.
A few that had some chance to qualify for the inadequate capacity warranty Opted Out but a lot didn't. With what Nissan has done maybe they did the right thing.

What did work to some degree was well stated and argued objection from Chief judge of the court hearing the case.
Supposedly class action settlement is still in mediation.
See details at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14378&hilit=+opt#p326483" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Only 27 pages.

I still think those that Opted Out and that qualify for the capacity warranty may be allowed to Opt In.
But not much certainty until the class action mediation wraps up.

 

[JPWhite]

I thought the reason to opt out of any class action was to retain your right to sue - either individually or in another class?

+1

I have never been able to fathom the logic presented here.

 

[EricBayArea]

I opted out. At least, I sent a certified letter to that effect.

Although, I thought the extended capacity warranty was communicated prior to the class action lawsuit so they were mutually exclusive.

In any case, if anyone is tracking a list of opt-out'ers, please add me to it.