We took the Leaf for a test drive yesterday.

[Roadburner440]

First I'd like to say it was a very positive experience. Ironically the whole thing with the charging seems to be a whole misunderstanding... Either way they were friendly and knowledgable when we went back up there. I called seeing if they had any 2012 SV's coming in, and that is when I was informed that the process does not work that way.

So they gave us the 2011 Demo for a couple hours, and we put about 30 some odd miles on it. My first observation after a lot of reading on here is the GOM was not acting the way described on here. I find it to be very comparative to my Volt. If anything that Leaf was under estimating its range, as we started with 100% charge and about 86 miles, and we went all the way from the dealer to Jefferson Ave and back with the car still showing about 55 miles range when we got back to the dealer. This was with most of the drive being on I-64 at 55-65mph. Either way the car is impressive. Not as powerful as the Volt, and it does not quite have the handling finesse (in my mind GM was aiming more for ricer compact with the Volt, and not efficient family vehicle like the Leaf so this is what I expected). Me and my wife both like the car..

So this brings me to my next question. I spent HOURS on here last night trying to decifer the lease information. EV Now seems to be the expert on this subject, but there seems to be a lot of variation. The dealer wanted us to buy that particular car yesterday (it is not due to come off demo till early March), but they were willing to sell it early to get it off their books I presume. I resisted doing so as I did not know a whole lot about the NMAC lease.

With the Volt we put $2500 down, which included first month payment, security deposit, and all that jazz. Reading on here I see I would not have a security deposit, but a "disposition fee" of about the same amount when I turn the car in (about $400). The car we would be trading in is a Prius. It is worth more than we owe, but that is between me and the dealer. Either way to make it worth our while I would like to reduce our payment over that (it is currently $448) to about the mid $300's ($350-$380 ideally).. I kept asking them about down payment like with the Volt, but they keep trying to tell me I may not need any money down. Of course then it gets rolled on the monthly payment. By my own figures to get where I want I would need to put about $3000 down to take care of the taxes, fee's, and first months payment up front.

So to get to why I posted all of this I just need to know if all this even looks feasible for a 2011 demo? We did not get to talking about money. It is a 2011 SL however, and has almost 900 miles on it thanks to us yesterday. I did notice it has not been kept in the best shape, and it does have some noticeable swirls/scratches in the paint (usual areas on black cars behind the door handle, and on the doors).. Will I be held responsible for that at least end, or are the Demo's different? With the Volt I have a GMAC Smart Lease Insurance for $800 they waive up to $5000 in damage, and $200 in over mileage fee's. From what I can see NMAC does not offer something similar, so at the lease end you are at their mercy.

I know this thread will be a duplicate in many. Like I said I spent hours pouring over the stickied threads, and searching yesterday.. Ideally I wanted a 2012 SV with the heated seats and all, but if you guys think I can get an even better deal out of this I will forgo that and try to get this car... I just need to know what to look for on the money factor bit, and all. I have read in a few of your guys thread that they try to jack that number up to make more money.. So I just want to walk in to this situation with all the information I can to get the deal done. Never owned a Nissan. Owned plenty of GM products (and swore I never would again till the Volt, that is their LAST chance with me).. Just looking at my Volt lease vs what you guys talk about though they seem to be very different, and that is ultimately why I am asking these questions. Thanks in advance for any help. Just all my reading on here yesterday has left me with more questions than answers.

 

[garygid]

Have you considered getting your own financing?
Is NMAC your only choice if you want to lease?

Do you trust this dealer?

You might want fix the price before working on lease terms?

MSRP + about $850 "shipping" + options = Trotal new MSRP.

Is this demo car being sold a used?
If so ... are you getting credit for the $7500 federal tax credit?

Then, subtract and dealer "new-car" discount, if any.

Then, reduce the price from "New" to "1000-mile, scratched, Used".

Has it had mats to protect the "carpet"?

Is the interior soiled?

Will they do a complete "Battery Capacity" test (in addition to the almost-useless yearly "Battery-Use" report) and give you a copy of all the results?

Last, will you get a fair price for your trade-in?
(You could probably sell a good-condition Prius yourself for more money.)

Now, you can talk meaningful lease terms. Ask to see the full calculation, and get an explanation of any quantity that you do not understand.

Or, just look at the "bottom line" figures: how much you pay (initially, and payments), and the residual (and the lease conditions: lease term, miles included, any penalties or turn-in fees, etc.).

Good luck dealing with "auto sales people"!

 

[Roadburner440]

The only way for me to get the credit would be to lease it.. If I buy it outright then I would pay full price with nothing on the backend. I couldn't even get the 30% for my charger (not that it mattered, but our tax liability is nill since my wife does not work and we have 2 kids)... So the only reason I am leasing is to get the credit. I am going to guess they would be selling it as a new car. Did not really make it that far as I did not even want to get in to that end of it without knowing more. Either way financing it myself would be looking at $550-$620 a month vs what I figure to be low to mid $300's, and then when I buy it out in 3 years I would have payments under $300 for the remaining $14-15k.

The battery capacity test is DEFINATELY something I would get them to do. I have been reading your guys reports on your battery tests, and so far it looks positive which is the main thing that got me now to go look at this particular car. With guys reporting little to no noticeable battery degradation on their tests gives me high hopes that the cars will at least last for their lease term. I can say that while GM does not do tests like this on the Volt my impression after over half a year with the car is that I have little to no degradation either.. Either way it was apparent yesterday that when I got in they keep the car at 100% (I asked their EV specialist about this, and he assured me it was at 80%.. When I got in the car however the bars were all the way to 1).

The interior looked ok. My wife commented that it smelled like fast food, so we speculate this has been their food run car. As far as the dealer itself goes they are the highest rated dealer in our area. With lots of positive reviews around the internet... My initial experience with them was bad, but that was apparently a giant misunderstanding (we went up there on the weekend after they closed to look at the Leaf, and apparently an employee thought we were charging our Volt there overnight when that wasn't the case).. So originally I was not going to even consider this particular car. The Leaf does have the optional floor mats as well, but I did not see them listed on the window sticker as an additional cost.

I am looking in to selling the Prius ourself. Again that depends on what they are willing to give me for it. It is an excellent car, and is another reason I am not jumping straight in to this.. My cost per mile in the Prius is about $0.067/mile.. So while the Leaf would half that it would not be worth it unless everything else lines up. Right now used ones are going for about $22-23,000 in my area with the same mileage.. Plus I have an extended warranty, and the all weather floor mats. Plus the car is in top shape. With the Volt though it has only seen about 200 miles since we moved in November. The car is in excellent shape as we do not allow ourselves or the kids to eat/drink anything in the car. Plus I take care of them, maintain all the records. So both it and the Volt still look like they rolled off the lot. Minus of course cat hair, and some dust inbetween cleanings. :lol: My wife likes the way the EV's drive now, and how quiet the Volt is so we use it almost exclusively for everything unless I have it at work. Then she takes her car.

I see you guys are big in to negotiating the price of the car as a buy before even mentioning lease.. I kind of already messed that one up as I told them of my intention as I do not qualify for the tax credit.. Either way if the numbers don't line up the way I am looking I wouldn't get the car anyway. I just wanted to make sure my expectations in this are semi-reasonable, and any gotcha's that people have noticed. The money factor seems to be the big one that they adjust to make some extra money.

 

[garygid]

I think $300 to $350 is low. After including taxes, etc., I think folks were ending up with more like $440/month, but I am not sure.

In any case, we wish you well.

You might want to list your Prius in our For Sale forum.

 

[Roadburner440]

Thanks Gary.. Taxes here are 3%, so on the $35000 I figured its about $1200. Is why I was adamant with them about putting $3k down, but they are insistant that they want nothing (of course as you point out that pushes it in to the $400+ price point).. For us we have more than that to work with. I just want to pay the taxes up front, all of the fee's I am supposed to (doc, 595 process, 850 dest, etc), and just pay the residual + lease %. I could pay nothing, and just do the $400+, and in the end it doesn't matter to much as they are getting the money one way or the other. I do thank you for the luck though.

 

[kevin672]

Thanks Gary.. Taxes here are 3%, so on the $35000 I figured its about $1200. Is why I was adamant with them about putting $3k down, but they are insistant that they want nothing (of course as you point out that pushes it in to the $400+ price point).. For us we have more than that to work with. I just want to pay the taxes up front, all of the fee's I am supposed to (doc, 595 process, 850 dest, etc), and just pay the residual + lease %. I could pay nothing, and just do the $400+, and in the end it doesn't matter to much as they are getting the money one way or the other. I do thank you for the luck though.

Seems to me since you know you want to lease and you have a monthly payment in mind, you should be able to tell the dealer what you want and they need to make that happen. Be careful taking that approach since it leaves opportunity for dealer shenanigans, but I would start there and see what they come up with. In my case, I leased a 2011 SL at MSRP with $5k down (the CA rebate at the time) and the lease payment is $351, and that's with the lousy NMAC rate of 4.9%. I could have done better on the interest rate on my own, but wouldn't have been able to take near the full $7500 fed tax credit.

 

[Roadburner440]

So is the 4.9% the top or bottom tier? $351 seems pretty good cause I would imagine California has pretty bad sales taxes on cars as well (granted they give you the $5k rebate + the $7500 from the feds)... I will not get any kind of state incentive, so it is a mute point there. For Ally their tiers were lettered, but we were good there as far as the Volt is concerned. I also just need to decide if I want to transfer my Florida tag off the Toyota and pay 7% sales tax, or register it in VA and pay 3% sales tax w/annual property tax. Finding licensing & registration information for VA is kind of scarce, so unsure what that annual property tax would be.

That is kind of why I was wanting to put the $3k down, cause that would put me in my mind where I want to be payment wise.. Plus since it is a demo with almost 900 miles on it that they would at least reduce the price by 1200-2500. From our initial discussions though it did not seem they intended to discount the car at all. I will let you guys know how it pans out. So is it possible to get lower than 4.9% you are saying? Cause for me the NMAC leases read kind of greek. Ally is very straight forward (monthly payment, total of payments, down payment, residual, $2500 fee if I choose to buy, and no fees to turn the car in other than if there is damage, etc.) as it is only a single sheet of paper.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Plus since it is a demo with almost 900 miles on it that they would at least reduce the price by 1200-2500. From our initial discussions though it did not seem they intended to discount the car at all.

What happened to the old saw about once you drive it over the curb you lose 20% ? That doesn't apply to them?

 

[planet4ever]

That is kind of why I was wanting to put the $3k down, cause that would put me in my mind where I want to be payment wise.

You really need to avoid thinking that way. The experts say you should keep the down payment as low as possible. The problem is that if the car is stolen or wrecked, your down payment will probably disappear - you won't be able to get it back. Instead of putting more down, put the extra money in a savings account, and take out enough every month to make up for the difference in payments.

Ray

 

[Roadburner440]

That is kind of why I was wanting to put the $3k down, cause that would put me in my mind where I want to be payment wise.

You really need to avoid thinking that way. The experts say you should keep the down payment as low as possible. The problem is that if the car is stolen or wrecked, your down payment will probably disappear - you won't be able to get it back. Instead of putting more down, put the extra money in a savings account, and take out enough every month to make up for the difference in payments.

Ray

Thanks for the advice Ray. I see your point. However I don't think any of us plan for our Leaves (or my Volt) getting totalled. Maybe you are correct in that I am looking at this wrong.. In my mind putting money down spares me some of the monthly finance charge/rent charge by financing a lower lease gap.. If what you are trying to tell me is that the interest is all calculated up front, and that putting my $3k down is the same as me paying $400+ a month then I can see where it would be stupid.. In my mind however if I put 3k down I would be saving myself 4.9% interest on that 3k, and leasing the other 8 or 9k left over. If that makes any sense.. Granted at 4.9% I am worrying about $150.. which in retrospect I guess does look stupid no matter what way you look at it. :lol:

You must remember too that in past leases they required you to put money down.. so this not putting money down is kind of a weird thing for me. As normally they require 20% to even push the paperwork with regular financing most times. So guess I am just stuck in the old way of thought.

 

[surfingslovak]

I spent HOURS on here last night trying to decifer the lease information. EV Now seems to be the expert on this subject, but there seems to be a lot of variation. The dealer wanted us to buy that particular car yesterday (it is not due to come off demo till early March), but they were willing to sell it early to get it off their books I presume. I resisted doing so as I did not know a whole lot about the NMAC lease.

I was in the same boat last year. I'm not the foremost expert on the topic, but I did a bit of work to model Nissan's promo leases for both trims (SV and SL). My numbers came pretty close to the advertised figures, and perhaps this will help you with your situation. You can download the spreadsheet or edit it online.

The dealer I negotiated with attempted to mark up the money factor to 0.00224, which corresponds to 5.38% annual interest, and not the 4.9% that were advertised as part of the promo lease. Everything else checked out, and no discount was offered. This particular dealer was not very pleasant, and I ended up purchasing the vehicle with my own financing at 2.49%. For what it's worth, I spent good amount of time on the Volt forum, and found the regulars there to be quite friendly. Good luck with your purchase!

http://bit.ly/leaseleaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[abasile]

If you are in the US military or are connected with the defense establishment, Navy Federal Credit Union is offering 1.79% on auto loans.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

good luck on your decision. now our local situation is a bit different due to a fire http://www.theolympian.com/2012/02/17/1994847/oil-refinery-fire-could-increase.html but gas has gone from $3.359 to $3.539 in 8 days and does not look to be slowing down.

as far as the lease decision, i am in same boat as you. the most i would have gotten on the credit was $2300. so i leased but they jacked up my lease rate as well, so i put $10,000 down which over the terms of the lease would be about $600 less than getting the tier 1 rate and $2000 down over the 3 year term. this dropped my payments to $162 a month.

as far as whether you are getting a good deal. since the car has that much mileage on it, what kind of break are they giving you off the sticker? it would be nice to have the 2012 but you are also looking at $3,000 more.

as far as other things like performance, etc. i dont think there is a lot of difference between the two model years. i will say that the paint does not seem to hold up extremely well, but i think that has to do with newer cars that have aluminum panels. my Prius seemed to get pitting on the front end easily as well.

 

[garygid]

With a no-down LEAF lease you are actually putting $7500 down,
which comes (at tax time) from the Feds directly to NMAC.

 

[Roadburner440]

Well Dave that is my hang up.. We did not get to talking numbers. They wanted to take my car (I have had them held hostage before, so unless I am 100% sure I am buying I NEVER hand the keys over) without giving me a solid number. Based on the about 40 minutes at the table with their EV Sales Guy and a Sales Manager it seemed to me and my wife that they expect the full $35,440 on the sticker. Ideally I would like to bring that down to $33k, but with gas prices where they are at that may be a hard task... The only benefit I have this time is 1.) don't need the car as we have our Prius 2.) they will have a very hard time getting someone else that already has a L2 station and knows what they are getting in to to walk in the door.

On the flip side after all of our time with our Volt driving EV is obviously awesome... As much as I wanted the heated seats in the Volt it was not worth the $6000+ price jump to get them. With the 2012 Leaf at least the SV model has them standard for about the same price as these dealer want for the 2011 SL's. I called Nissan yesterday, and they ran all of my stuff and were going to waive the $99 fee and home inspection if I call back to order a car.

$162 a month for the payment is outstanding.... The more I play with the lease sheet, and the money factors I am kind of understanding more what to look for. Ideally you want to be at the .00204 rate, but even at .0026 I would not be bad off. There is another 2011 SL me and my wife are going to go look at tonight after the dealer closes to check its condition.. It too is a demo, but it says it only has 12 miles on it and they want $34,100. For me that is somewhat acceptable baring it is still low miles and looks like a new car.. If this one looks like the other then most likely will just call Nissan tomorrow, and wait the 3 months for my 2012 to roll in... From what I have read on here they come to the port in Norfolk, VA anyway for final assembly. So I could meet her at the port for pickup ideally. I am still poking around on here too looking at all the ins and outs.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well Dave that is my hang up..

well, i had planned to go in, pay the $2,000 and since there was no sales tax, it was supposed to be under the advertised lease fee (i did get a small discount off MSRP) but then they came back with lease form that was nearly $100 higher than expected, i glanced at it and it had sales tax. told them that had to be removed. so they come back with figure that was still higher (MF was NOT printed on the lease) could not figure out why, so i had them runs #'s for 2,000; 5,000; and 10,000 down. it was not until 10,000 that i would get to what i expected to pay which as stated would be about $600 less over the 3 year term.

going in, the only question i had was difference between the 12,000 mile lease and the 15,000 mile lease which i took. the cost per month was less than $10 on standard $2,000 down.

either way, it was after 8 PM when i got out of there after arriving a few minutes after noon. granted i was the first in WA to get one, but i have never seen an outfit as unprepared as Rairdon's. they did "change" their Leaf Expert so the guy who did it had only been in that position for about a month but it was apparent that "the dog ate his homework"

as the lease, my MF was bumped 3 positions (my credit score is 818) and i had to SIGN FOUR LEASES because of whatever reason including two trips after delivery. now, its one thing to not know what you are doing, but there was several things done that was "questionable".

the 3rd lease i signed was about 2 weeks after delivery. so after my one month anniversary came and went and i still had no lease account #, no correspondence from the lease company, etc. i called dealer who ONLY THEN, admitted that they could not find my lease application and i would have to sign another one. they also recommended that i do it right away to avoid a late fee...

well was lucky in that was coming up to Seattle for meetup with FB group, so stopped in and signed lease at that time so it at least it was not out of the way. (used their charger...funny because have been by there twice since then and charger was out of order...)

all this was reported to Nissan Regional Manager. i did not ask for compensation, but i definitely wanted people to know what had happened to me.

 

[Roadburner440]

Hopefully by $10,000 that includes the $7500 tax credit. Otherwise yikes! I can be pretty peculiar in a dealership. I usually read the paperwork several times, go through all the figures with a fine tooth comb, and make sure it adds up. With my first lease I was unsure of how to do this, but to me the numbers looked right, and I haven't looked back since. Granted I think they adjust the money factor up on me, but at least this time I know what I am looking for.

So I have an order in now for a Cayenne Red 2012 Leaf SL... Me and my wife debated for awhile about it, and finally concluded that if we do wind up keeping the car having the QC port, backup cam, and all would be great for future proofing. Not to mention I will get my heated seats, and heating steering wheel. Now we just need to come up with some way to activate the pack heater before it hits -20C. :lol:

I think in the mean time I have convinced myself to keep my Florida tag, and just transfer it so I don't mess up the front end with a front license plate. Was kicking around the idea of switching it to VA, but would rather not mess around with the inspections and all. So now just the 90-120 day wait before it arrives.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

actually it was $10,000 cash then $7500 added for down payment of $17,500. i had originally wanted to purchase so arranged my finances to maximize the tax credit but was set for 2010. well missed that date by a few weeks, so had to lease. it worked out since i sold my Prius which was good because was hurting after writing Uncle Sam a $4600 check for taxes

 

[davewill]

No markdown for it being a demo? Walk away. Place an order and wait your turn. No sense paying full price for a car that's been used and smells of fast food!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

normally, i would say that too and in my area we do have orphans sitting on the lot going for MSRP but in his area? maybe not so much supply and the gas price spike that has already begun might make getting anything at MSRP extremely difficult for a while