Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counties

[DaveinOlyWA]

wow, already seeing lines at the lonely QC. i hope that all charging got at least a cup of coffee from the host.

since Walgreens has installed the first (and only) charging station in Hawk's Prairie (eastern part of town and "last stop" options before hitting Nisqually Wildlife Sanctuary, Nisqually Indian Reservation and JBLM Military Reservation) i have made it a point to shop there for much more than prescriptions. they do not require a purchase at this time but its only 2 blocks out of my daily driving pattern and they do have a wide range of stuff

 

[occ]

Well, with (fairly) new snow in the mountains and a new L3 QC at the base of the mountains, I couldn't help myself! Had a nice half day skiing at Snow Valley today and couldn't have made the 210 mile journey if not for the 40kW charger. As you've heard it was derated from 50kW to 40kW but for most situations this only means an extra few minutes as most of the charge time is after ramping down from full power. So here's how it went:

60 mile drive from Irvine at 62-64mph landed at the QC with about 20 miles on the rangeometer.. Todd Warden from the AQMD was there charging his Leaf and we talked while his car charged. I plugged my scantool into his car to watch the charge. I plugged into the L2 EVSE in the meantime. He said he was there yesterday as well and there were two other Leafs in front of him in line for the charger! He also said there were two more QCs being installed nearby.

At about 75% SOC the QC stopped on his car which seemed odd, but he offered me the QC and he moved to L2 for a while. At about 75% the QC stopped on my car as well! (about 220gids) At this point we tried swapping again and lo and behold the QC took off and kept going... When he got down to about 12A (1.5x L2 speed) he took off and I tried the QC again on my car. Again it worked fine and I watched it ramp all the way down to 4A at which point I switched to L2 where I got 8A for a while but then it too ramped down... I was pretty full even though only 264gids 11/12 bars (as others here have observed). Just as with L2 charging, the Leaf does not allow the pack voltage to exceed 394V (4.1v/cell) under the QC.

Drove 27 miles up to Snow Valley and landed with 95gids (~31% SOC) 2.1mi/kWh.
"Dan" the electrical guy at the ski area let me plug into 110v for an L1 charge while I went skiing.
Finished L1 charging after 4 hours with 152gids (~52% SOC). Driving down the mountain got as high as 184gids (64%) from regen! Capped at 8mi/kWh on this leg.

Plugged in again at the QC and without stopping (like in the morning) went straight from 59% to 89% where I stopped the charge and drove back to Irvine.

Other than the spring conditions on the slope, it was an excellent day and I'm thrilled at the prospect of having more of these quick chargers available to us.

Greg, that's awesome! Thanks for the report! I'm in Tustin, and been waiting for that QC to do Snow Valley in the LEAF! So for those of us who don't yet have a Gid meter, you went from 11 bars to, what, approximately 2-3 bars remaining going from the QC to Snow Valley Resort, right? Did you have to go slow or pull-out for faster traffic at all going up? Did you briing along gears, or any other passengers?

And then going back down to the QC, you gained ~2.4kwh, which is about 1 1/2 bars (32 Gids * 80wh/gids)? So you didn't really need to charge at the ski resort at all then?

Also, approximately how long was the QC to get you back to Irvine?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm so excited that going to Snow Valley is now so doable in the LEAF, and especially since you are from my neck of the woods too! Just too cool!

 

[abasile]

Just a friendly reminder to those contemplating using the QC and then driving up the 330 to Snow Valley or Big Bear: Unless you are driving the speed limit of 55 mph up the mountain, please do make liberal use of turnouts. As a local, I don't want to see EVs get a bad rap because of slow driving coupled with failure to let others pass. I typically drive 30-40 mph up the mountain so as to be conservative with the battery pack and to extend range. For safety reasons, on the 330, I only use designated turnouts as they allow generous room to pull out. Some of the turnouts parallel the highway for long enough to avoid having to come to a full stop while cars are passing. If some guy in a monster truck starts tailgating, don't worry about it and let him wait until the next turnout.

Also, it helps that there are three passing lane sections, the first one at elev. 2500' by the City Creek ranger station, the second at elev. 4000', and the third at 5300' as you come into the lower end of Running Springs. To get your current altitude from the LEAF, click on Menu, then Info, then GPS Position.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

After charging to ~70% at my house, perhaps you might be able to make it home without further charging if you drive (gently, picking up regen) west through the mountains on CA-18, then down to Crestline on Lake Gregory Drive, then pick up CA-138 to Cajon Junction and onward. To play it safe, rather than using the QC on your way home, you could detour a bit and stop at the Nissan dealer in Victorville for some L2 charging.

Thanks again for the insights and encouragement. I'll have to do some estimates of how much charge we might be able to arrive at Cajon Junction with after a drive down from your home. Detouring to Victorville adds about 20 miles to the trip, but splits the drive into two legs, each <60 miles, so that would work if we keep the desert speeds moderate. While we'd prefer not to have to L2 for a couple of hours in Victorville, that option does minimize elevation changes that a 100-mile non-stop direct shot via Cajon Junction and the SR138 would involve.

 

[Kataphn]

Thanks Andrew for the explanation about the 330. I hope to be in touch with you soon about stopping by.

Kathleen aka Kat

 

[abasile]

I have some bad news and good news.

First, the bad news. The San Bernardino QC has been shut down temporarily. My wife was the last person to be allowed to use it this afternoon. The electric bill turned out to be higher than the owner (?) anticipated, likely due to demand charges. I imagine they are now considering limiting the power to 20 or 30 kW to avoid demand charges. More details are being passed to tbleakne.

The good news is that the site owner is reportedly in the process of installing another QC in San Bernardino just off the 10 freeway, near the intersection of Waterman and Hospitality (might be very close to the Costco). In many cases, this could turn out to be a much more convenient location.

 

[z0ner]

The darn thing has barely been at 80% efficiency for a full week and now they decide to pull it because they're getting a (surprise) higher-than-expected electric bill?

You're kidding me.

I wonder how much extra revenue the 7-11 has taken in that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

 

[davewill]

The darn thing has barely been at 80% efficiency for a full week and now they decide to pull it because they're getting a (surprise) higher-than-expected electric bill?

You're kidding me.

I wonder how much extra revenue the 7-11 has taken in that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

A dozen drivers making Slurpee and candy bar purchases? The demand charges can be 10s of thousands of $$ per month. I'm surprised this calculation wasn't done before they spent the install money. I hope he finds a solution that can work.

 

[Kataphn]

Well, heck....just as we were all planning our mountain trips! They built it and we came....in too many numbers it seems :roll:

 

[TonyWilliams]

As predicted by me last year; sales people wouldn't bring it up, even if they knew what a demand fee was. So, somebody who didn't do his due diligence finds out after spending $XX,XXX.

Many of these will come up for sale, or just shut down, with a mumble of NEVER again while the salesman is enjoying his commission on a Cayman Islands holiday.

When Ecotality was selling a customer that I recommended last year, after weeks and weeks of back and forth negotiation, this little super important issue never came up.

I told him about. Deal falls apart. Dumb.

It will happen over and over. Guaranteed.

 

[abasile]

Tony, I agree that QC salespeople need to tell the truth about demand charges.

The optimist in me hopes that, rather than being abandoned, QC units like this one will end up getting used at a rate of ~ 20 kW, at least until the CPUC can be persuaded to change its position on demand fees for EV charging. That would still be six times as fast as current L2 charging.

The use of a significant amount of energy at peak daytime TOU rates could be another issue. Mitsubishi is smart to offset this with a significant solar array at their headquarters, by their QC.

In any event, we as EV owners will need to be prepared to pay a premium for QC use. I don't have a problem with that, though of course lower rates might be preferable for encouraging EV adoption.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, I agree that QC salespeople need to tell the truth about demand charges.

The optimist in me hopes that, rather than being abandoned, QC units like this one will end up getting used at a rate of ~ 20 kW, at least until the CPUC can be persuaded to change its position on demand fees for EV charging. .

Except...... That 20kW you propose is added to the host's already big bill, with existing demand fee.

No, they won't throttle it down at that point. They will shut it down (for a location where there is no fee, little revenue from ancillary sales, big insurance premium to pay, etc).

I will call the manager tomorrow, and give him my quickly expanding council on how to make this work post facto.

 

[Lopton]

Except...... That 20kW you propose is added to the host's already big bill, with existing demand fee.

No, they won't throttle it down at that point. They will shut it down (for a location where there is no fee, little revenue from ancillary sales, big insurance premium to pay, etc).

I will call the manager tomorrow, and give him my quickly expanding council on how to make this work post facto.

Is that going to be your advice Tony? to shut it down? :?:
-Matt

 

[TonyWilliams]

Except...... That 20kW you propose is added to the host's already big bill, with existing demand fee.

No, they won't throttle it down at that point. They will shut it down (for a location where there is no fee, little revenue from ancillary sales, big insurance premium to pay, etc).

I will call the manager tomorrow, and give him my quickly expanding council on how to make this work post facto.

Is that going to be your advice Tony? to shut it down? :?:
-Matt

How does one develop that question out of my comments?

It already is shut down, so if that were the recommendation, I wouldn't need to call, would I ?

 

[abasile]

Except...... That 20kW you propose is added to the host's already big bill, with existing demand fee.

IIRC, per tbleakne's research, SCE demand fees start at 30 kW. If that is indeed the case, then 20 kW of QC usage might not be a problem. We shall see.

 

[Lopton]

Except...... That 20kW you propose is added to the host's already big bill, with existing demand fee.

No, they won't throttle it down at that point. They will shut it down (for a location where there is no fee, little revenue from ancillary sales, big insurance premium to pay, etc).

I will call the manager tomorrow, and give him my quickly expanding council on how to make this work post facto.

Is that going to be your advice Tony? to shut it down? :?:
-Matt

How does one develop that question out of my comments?

It already is shut down, so if that were the recommendation, I wouldn't need to call, would I ?

Obviously I didn't follow what your solution was, all your previous comments were negative and saying how the deals fell apart, and the units would be shut down. So because I didn't see what you suggested the plan was I figured I would ask if that was your suggestion. However if you aren't interested in sharing that is fine to, just figured I'd ask, pardon me if that somehow offended you... Or you could just share what you suggestions would be?


-Matt

 

[TonyWilliams]

Except...... That 20kW you propose is added to the host's already big bill, with existing demand fee.

IIRC, per tbleakne's research, SCE demand fees start at 30 kW. If that is indeed the case, then 20 kW of QC usage might not be a problem. We shall see.

You're missing the point. It adds to the load. I just reviewed this exact same thing today with a business installing a DC charger.

If Demand fee threshold is 30kW, and busineess pulls 29.9 at peak, everybody is happy; no demand fee. Then, you toss in a 54kW load (90% assumed efficiency at 48kW delivery to LEAF).

Guess what? It doesn't matter if that unit was 1kW or 54kW, they just entered Planet Demand Fee. The only thing we could argue is how much.

Let's say their load was only 15kW max. Not even close to a big fee. Just to make sure, they throttle the charger to 16kW... Boom, welcome back to Demandville.

All we can do is mitigate the damage.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Obviously I didn't follow what your solution was, all your previous comments were negative and saying how the deals fell apart, and the units would be shut down. So because I didn't see what you suggested the plan was I figured I would ask if that was your suggestion. However if you aren't interested in sharing that is fine to, just figured I'd ask, pardon me if that somehow offended you... Or you could just share what you suggestions would be?

Matt, sorry for the tart in my response.

Of course, I didn't offer a solution, which is why you missed it :mrgreen:

Several solutions:

1. Reduce Charger consumption grid
A. Throttle back unit to a fixed reduced rating (mitigates the damage)
B. Battery storage to handle surge (very expensive, but probably cheaper long term)
C. Battery storage to back feed at peak times, aka Car 2 grid (except not with a car)
D. Combination of all three
E. Cycle equipment - Turn unit off when average demand rises, and then back on when ave kw decreases.  Presents a few potential problems with customer perception.
F. At the start of the cycle control the length of charge.  Probably not ideal.
G. At the start of the cycle control the max power output.  When ave kw is about 80 - 90% of desired demand limit the charger will only be allowed to produce power at a percentage of maximum output.  This just effects the initial power early in the cycle, as the current drops with time, the power output will approach the same as starting at full power.  Net result is it adds to the length of the charge.

2. Site methods
A. Cycle air handlers, air conditioners, freezers, pumps, etc, during charge time
B. Close charger per posted schedule during peak times
C. Enroll in SCE grid program to get credits, rate breaks (SCE can shut you down during high grid load.

There's more. The point is somebody like me needs to get to these guys before they say "never again" and pull the plug.

 

[Lopton]

Several solutions:
.........

There's more. The point is somebody like me needs to get to these guys before they say "never again" and pull the plug.

Thanks for sharing Tony, I just like learning about these things
-Matt

 

[abasile]

You're missing the point. It adds to the load. I just reviewed this exact same thing today with a business installing a DC charger.

I do understand that the overall maximum possible load at a given business is what's important. Yes, even a 20 kW QC, particularly when considered together with a 3.3 kW L2, might still be too high to avoid demand fees with a 30 kW threshold. I just don't know what the power utilization at that shopping center looks like. In San Bernardino, summertime A/C demand could be fairly high. Hopefully the owner finds a palatable way forward. Thank you, Tony, for your efforts!

Trying to look on the bright side, I will say that there are a whole lot more L2 options in the Inland Empire area than when we purchased our LEAF almost a year ago. At that time, we really only had the Nissan dealers. Now we have L2 in some pretty decent locations where it's easy to spend some time. Modest range extension is quite do-able. None of that can match having a QC, though.