Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counties

[tbleakne]

The Eaton unit at the 7-11 shares a meter with something else...

This conflicts with what I understood from the electrician, John, and the contractor, Dan, who did the install. My understanding is that they added a meter that supplies only the L2 and the L3 on separate breakers.

Did you talk to John ?

 

[garygid]

Can (or should) the owner appeal these unexpected bills to the CPUC (or some other arbitration), based on the lack of disclosure by the PU of full rate information and choices?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can (or should) the owner appeal these unexpected bills to the CPUC (or some other arbitration), based on the lack of disclosure by the PU of full rate information and choices?

You mean the data that's been on their website forever?

Waste of valuable time. Pay the money, learn the lesson, move on.

 

[davewill]

Can (or should) the owner appeal these unexpected bills to the CPUC (or some other arbitration), based on the lack of disclosure by the PU of full rate information and choices?

The approach I would try would be contacting either the utility's PR arm or their EV folks, and explain that this is a brand new QC install and that the SNAFU with getting the wrong rate plan is getting a lot of negative publicity, and see if they'll throw him a bone and switch him to the right rate plan so that it can be turned back on.

 

[Randy]

I don't think it is a matter of the right or wrong rate plan. When you add over 60kW of load at a business, at they did in this case, with most large utilities in California that means you'll be on a commercial rate that has demand charges.

I know this next statement won't be popular on this board...One of the purposes of the demand charge is to shift some of the infrastructure cost to those who are using the infrastructure the most. I don't know details of this particular installation, but there is a good chance that some infrastructure was or will be upgraded to handle this 60+ kW load. In many cases that I've been involved in with San Diego installs, transformer upgrades would be necessary (at a minimum) to accomodate this much additional load. You can argue that the CPUC should exempt the DCFC from demand charges for a period of time (and I actually like that idea), but that would mean all ratepayers would then subsidize these installations (which is a change in the CPUC philosophy). Write a note to your favorite PUC commissioner and advocate/educate...

Now that the business owner has spent big bucks to install the equipment, the best way to move forward is to charge a fee for using the chargers, and try to maximize the use of them so they can spread the demand charges to the many users over the course of a month. Maybe look into reducing the output of the DC FC to minimize the demand charges. It would be a shame for the public to lose this resource, so I'd certainly be willing to pay to use it if I was in the area...

As a group, I'd love to see us do what we can to help out the business owner...

 

[EricH]

Does anyone know what the "voltage discount" is in the demand charge? I have no idea what kind of voltage SCE feeds to various size commercial sites.. The ranges in the GS2 tarif are 2-50kV, 50-220kV and 220kV (if memory serves)... Can anyone explain that?

Commercial customers may take service at varying voltage levels -- the higher the voltage taken, the lower the transformer-losses incurred by the utility. Thus "voltage discounts", for customers taking service at >50kw, etc. The customer must step the voltage down, and depending on how much energy is used, the discount can offset the cost of the customer-owned transformer.

 

[DaveEV]

TOU-EV-4 looks quite interesting because it is designed for > 20 kW EV charging. Presumably the owner never knew to ask for it.
The demand charge is a flat $12/kW with no summer add-on, but it gets better when there is also another meter for the non-EV portion of the business:

If an additional service is provided under this Schedule (EV account) in conjunction with the
customer’s regular General Service rate schedule, in each billing period, the Facilities Related
Demand Charge for the EV account will be determined using the demand, if any, which
exceeds the Facilities Related Demand for such General Service account. If the Facilities
Related Demand for the EV account does not exceed the Facilities Related Demand for the
General Service account, there will be NO Facilities Related Demand Charge for the EV account

The 7-11 has lots of refrigeration. It looks like we are in a good place if we can set the Eaton unit's maximum to a level comfortably below the minimum demand that the 7-11 draws.

At first glance TOU-EV-4 appears to be the best deal for EV charging loads greater than 20kW.

Reasonable demand charge. Generation charge is fairly high during summer on-peak ($0.24/kWh) but not totally unreasonable and typical for California on-peak rates. And if the store's meter is on a schedule with demand charges, the demand charges for there will be reduced. Win-win!

 

[GregH]

The Eaton unit at the 7-11 shares a meter with something else...

This conflicts with what I understood from the electrician, John, and the contractor, Dan, who did the install. My understanding is that they added a meter that supplies only the L2 and the L3 on separate breakers.

Did you talk to John ?

Talked to Jian Torkan, the owner.. It's possible he knows less than the installer but he implied that unlike the first unit, his 2nd and 3rd would have dedicated meters.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Did this San Bernadino 7-11 site use any grant money or is it entirely privately financed?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Did this San Bernadino 7-11 site use any grant money or is it entirely privately financed?

No tax money.

 

[Randy]

But wouldn't he have been eligible for the EVSE federal tax credit?

 

[TonyWilliams]

But wouldn't he have been eligible for the EVSE federal tax credit?

Didn't that tax credit require that the EVSE be operational by Dec 31, 2011?

This wasn't up until March 20, 2012.

 

[Randy]

True, but wasn't there a service problem with the unit for awhile initially, making the install really complete back in 2011?

It would be worth a lot of money if that was true....

Edit: Here's a photo of the unit from January 10, and the installation looks pretty complete...The owner HAS to know about the tax credit, right?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7253#p165156" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

True, but wasn't there a service problem with the unit for awhile initially, making the install really complete back in 2011?

It would be worth a lot of money if that was true....

Edit: Here's a photo of the unit from January 10, and the installation looks pretty complete...The owner HAS to know about the tax credit, right?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7253#p165156" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know. His business is not EV chargers, and his accountant(s) may or may not be aware of this. I'll ask him.

 

[jasonfsu]

I would just like to thank the members of this group for working with the owner, manufacturers and installers to get this unit operational once and now to try and find a solution to bring it back online.

I am a new member to this forum and have already learned a tremendous amount in just the last 2 days. I love my new LEAF, and it is great to have such an active and strong support group.

Chances are I will never need to use the DC QC at this 7-11, but I really was amazed when I checked a charge map and found it here. I will stop by for a Slurpee and some lotto tickets tonight.

 

[jasonfsu]

Quick Update...
I stopped to get my Slurpee and lotto tickets (long-term retirement plan). I didn't need to charge as I left work with my 80% top charge, but I plugged into the L2 so it would list on the GPS.

While in the clerks mentioned they thought the L3 was working, so when I went out I touched the screen. Lo and behold it did work.

I took 3 pics and will try to upload them here, but this is the first forum I have ever joined to forgive me if it does not work.

I to have a charge timer set to 12:00am-12:00am, 80% max. Strange thing was the L3 charger seemed to want to go for an hour, regardless of my charge level and/or the fact that my LEAF probably started rejecting further charging after just a couple minutes. When I got in it did show the normal charge and range for 80%.

Please be gentle using this L3!! I know if I lived in Hollywood I would be tempted to drive all the way to San Berdoo just to check this out, but if everyone in SoCal does that we might just overload the owner again!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Very good news!!!

The amount of use doesn't really affect the demand charge; it's the singular peak kW over a 15 minute period of time.

1000 charges in a month at 19.9kW generate zero demand fee.

1 car in a month at 60kW generates up to many thousands of dollars in demand per month.

 

[Ingineer]

So then the Level II needs to be moved off this meter, and then this QC set to under a 20kW limit. (or have the QC dial back by whatever amount is being used on the Level II)

-Phil

 

[ElectricVehicle]

I just came back from an event describing the 1MW fuel cell (CHP - Combined Heat and Power), 1MW/4MWh BYD battery storage, 1.4 MW PV and Diesel backup generator Microgrid. Pretty cool stuff!

Of course this involves the peak / off peak rates, demand charges and the strategies to minimize the utility bill, which includes storing off peak energy for use on peak and using the batteries to soak up energy off peak to maintain the level of demand when demand drops or supplying energy to prevent a demand spike. So you want a constant power level usage from the utility to minimize the demand charge.

So I took the opportunity to ask how the demand level for the 15 minute peak demand window is calculated. Tim of Chevron said it's the Average of the power draw during the 15 minute interval. (for PG&E anyway) I haven't been able to find this in the rates, tarifffs or rules yet on PG&E's website.

So if you draw during the peak 15 minute demand period, 20kW for 10 minutes and 15 kw for the remaining 5 minutes, then the peak demand is 18 kW (20kW*10min/15min + 15kW*5min/15min). (I don't know how they round the calculation, I'm assuming to nearest so 18.3 kW becomes 18 kW)

He also said PG&E standardized on 15 minute demand period. In the Palo Alto Electric I saw the rates saying it's a 15 minute interval unless it's really peaky and they might switch you to a 5 minute interval.

Interesting, I found a nice description of demand charges on Portland Gas and Electric's website (another PG&E!). Note they use 30 instead of 15 minutes - that would be much better for a QC!

Demand
On-peak demand charges are assessed to customers with demands greater than 30 kW. While your system usage charge reflects how many kilowatt-hours of electricity you used, demand reflects the maximum rate of electricity delivered. To determine your monthly demand, we measure your highest average usage over a 30-minute period — that’s your demand. It is not the instantaneous peak kW in a 30-minute period.

If an account demand exceeds 30 kW at least twice in a 13-month period (or once in the first seven months of a new account), that account moves from Schedule 32 to Schedule 83. It’s often a sign that a business is growing.

Demand charges help cover the costs of reserving and providing peak capacity. We need to be prepared to meet our customers’ maximum load requirements at any time.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Ahhh, here's the bit from SCE, GS-2 Tariff:

5. Maximum Demand: The maximum demand in any month shall be the measured maximum
average kilowatt input, indicated or recorded by SCE metering, during any 15-minute metered
interval in the month, but, where applicable, shall not be less than the diversified resistance
welder load computed in accordance with the section designated Welder Service in Rule 2.
Where the demand is intermittent or subject to violent fluctuations, a 5-minute interval may be
used.

http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce30-12.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Welder Service apparently only applies to welders, the curious or sleepless can read it in Rule 2: http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/Rule2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ps. Congratulations on San Bernadino coming back online!