Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counties

[JPVLeaf]

It's unfortunate the owner/property mgmt is only now discovering the ...

... electric bill turned out to be higher than the owner (?) anticipated, likely due to demand charges.

I'm curious how much the QC-related bill was for the week.

Does the site's SCE demand charges apply round-the-clock, or only during on-peak periods? This will vary depending on which commercial rate plan applies. A facility with a QC DC needs to figure a plan based on their specific rate plan. Time-related demand charges (or not), facilities-related demand charges, variable on-peak and mid-peak energy charges ... lots of variables. There will be great benefits to a SCE QC-friendly rates.

One facility I know of on a TOU rate plan has time-related demand charges that only apply during on-peak periods and only during summer months, and separate facilities-related demand charges that apply year-round. If they end up installing a DC QC and if costs were an issue, they could tailor their QC usage/availability to minimize their time-related demand charges (i.e., limit on-peak QC usage and/or charge a premium for on-peak QC usage).

 

[tbleakne]

First, the bad news. The San Bernardino QC has been shut down temporarily. My wife was the last person to be allowed to use it this afternoon. The electric bill turned out to be higher than the owner (?) anticipated, likely due to demand charges. I imagine they are now considering limiting the power to 20 or 30 kW to avoid demand charges. More details are being passed to tbleakne.

The good news is that the site owner is reportedly in the process of installing another QC in San Bernardino just off the 10 freeway, near the intersection of Waterman and Hospitality (might be very close to the Costco). In many cases, this could turn out to be a much more convenient location.

I am not sure building more stations is such good news, given how clueless these folks are.

I only just heard about this via PM from solpower. I will call John, the installing electrician, in the morning, because he has lost my number.

On the day the Eaton unit was repaired, I told everyone there, John, the general contractor, Dan, and Donovan, the Eaton field engineer, about the demand charges and none of them had heard about them. The owner type folks, who I saw the first time I tested and failed the unit, were nowhere to be seen this time. I considered telling them about the demand charges when I saw them the first time, but I just couldn't bring myself to risk having them never turn it on. They seemed to have so much money to burn, I thought perhaps they would not care. Gil is not technical and has no authority.

The QC and the adjacent L2 are on separate breakers and share one dedicated meter, separate from 7-11 and the other small tenants in the building. This means to avoid the SCE demand charge threshold, which is 20 kW, the L3 would have to be dialed back to 15 kW if the L2 was allowed to run at the same time. This would be a serious blow to its utility, but better than nothing. Perhaps the L2 could be switched to the 7-11 meter so the L3 could be raised up to 18 kW.

The unit's parameters can only be adjusted by an Eaton tech who has the diagnostic password. Donovan explained that full access included some parameters that could be set to dangerous values. They should have separate password levels, so the host could at least retrieve fault codes. Right now any changes might require another trip by Donovan from North Carolina, although they trusted the local Eaton sales rep to retrieve the fault codes before Donovan came.

Since the L2 and L3 are on a separate meter, they are eligible for SCE's special EV charging demand tariff of $12 per kW, which would be (40+4)*12 = $528 for the month. Since the owners have proven clueless about everything else, I think it very likely they did not request this tariff. I will suggest that. I will also try to explain how the demand tariff works. More customers per month is a good thing that does not raise the demand charge.

I believe the EV charging demand tariff I saw is not TOU because it does not allow other loads such as A/C on the same meter. You can see for yourself at sce.com in the commercial section.

They have at least two other problems: 1. the unit they purchased has no facility to either meter the power or accept a payment card.
2. Donovan noticed that this unit was shipped before UL certification was obtained. He told me the unit could be field-certified, but that it did not have the sticker indicating that this had been done. Should I mention this on top of everything else ?

 

[walterbays]

Well, heck....just as we were all planning our mountain trips! They built it and we came....in too many numbers it seems :roll:

Or too low numbers. Demand fees hit based on the highest load in the month, so high utilization of the QC station is essential to amortize the cost across more users.

If the second meter for 7-11's QC station is on rate schedule GS-2 and if I read SCE's PUC rate filing correctly - two very big ifs - then they pay about 12 cents per kWh plus $29 per kW peak usage. I can't find anything in the SCE materials that exempts the first 30 kW from demand charges as SDG&E does. Rather it looks like lower demand users are just allowed to be on a different rate schedule that doesn't have demand charges. Here's how those numbers would look for QC customers getting 12.6 kWh charges (20% to 80%), on a charger that runs as high as 40 kW.

1 car per month
12.6 kWh * $0.12/kWh + 40 kW * $29/kW = $1,161.51, or $92.18/kWh

10 cars per month
10 * 12.6 kWh * $0.12/kWh + 40 kW * $29/kW = $1,175.12, or $9.33/kWh

100 cars per month
$1,311.20, or $1.04/kWh

1,000 cars per month
$2,672.00, or $0.21/kWh

Certainly the numbers are radically different if the utility exempts some portion of kW from demand fees, and if the charger has battery storage to limit its peak load on the grid. However if the utility forces the QC station to always be separately metered then that prevents perhaps the best strategy to mitigate the demand charges: put it on the same meter with a large commercial building complex with computerized demand management, and when the 40 kW QC load comes on, turn back the A/C by one degree for a few minutes.

Edit: forgot to include the SCE rate schedule info.
http://asset.sce.com/Documents/Business%20-%20Rates/081212_General_Service2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce30-12.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit 2: If a QC station is "solar powered" and the solar panels provide 100%+ of electricity needs during the day, and just one car charges after the sun goes down, and draws 40 kW from the grid, that's $1,160 right there. Even if there is battery backup for the solar power, if just one day all month it's cloudy and by the time the sun sets the batteries are low, and one car comes and draws 40 kW from the grid, that's $1,160.

 

[occ]

The pessimist in me tells me that once we get out of the grip of the oil company, we just land ourselves in the hands of another large hungry greedy electric company. I can just imagine the electric CEO talking to his CFO (both sitting in a nice comfy cigar smoked filled lounge) and saying "just keep the rate per kwh really low...we'll get them on the demand charges, much more profitable!" (ala "Enron, The Smartest Guys in the Room").

Well, at least there are alternatives to producing and storing of electricity, albeit expensive, but much more attainable.

 

[edatoakrun]

"tbleakne"

...Since the L2 and L3 are on a separate meter, they are eligible for SCE's special EV charging demand tariff of $12 per kW, which would be (40+4)*12 = $528 for the month. Since the owners have proven clueless about everything else, I think it very likely they did not request this tariff. I will suggest that. I will also try to explain how the demand tariff works. More customers per month is a good thing that does not raise the demand charge.

I believe the EV charging demand tariff I saw is not TOU because it does not allow other loads such as A/C on the same meter. You can see for yourself at sce.com in the commercial section.

They have at least two other problems: 1. the unit they purchased has no facility to either meter the power or accept a payment card...

If the $528 demand charge you calculate is correct, that doesn't seem to be as insurmountable problem.

But is there no utility in Southern CA, that doesn't offer any business a rate with lower demand charges?

PG&E seems to offer small business customer rater options, that effectively mean NO demand charges, for many QC installations.

The fact is, BEV drivers cannot expect any public charging, fast or slow, to be anywhere near as cheap as home charging, particularly in it's early stages, when there a fewer QC BEVs on the road, and no competition for their business.

I'd expect any workable public charging business plan, to require average charges per kWh at between 150% and 200% of the average residential rate (which was about 18 cents a kWh, in PG&E territory, last time I checked) for the foreseeable future.

I would gladly pay that amount, for the few "on the road " charges I'd need, as long as they were at QCs.

It is ridiculous for any business to think, as this one apparently did, that you can give away Quick charging as a perk, like much less valuable customer benefits, like free parking, and L2 charging, can be.

We will only "get what we pay for" from QC, when we begin to actually pay for it, IMO.

 

[abasile]

They have at least two other problems: 1. the unit they purchased has no facility to either meter the power or accept a payment card.

One possible way around this, at least for now, would be to have folks pay on the honor system. Maybe that would mean going into the store and paying the cashier for each use, or possibly sending money to a PayPal account. As early adopters, we need to be prepared to be generous with our charging dollars.

 

[edatoakrun]

They have at least two other problems: 1. the unit they purchased has no facility to either meter the power or accept a payment card.

One possible way around this, at least for now, would be to have folks pay on the honor system. Maybe that would mean going into the store and paying the cashier for each use, or possibly sending money to a PayPal account. As early adopters, we need to be prepared to be generous with our charging dollars.

How hard could it be to time the use of the QC, and just pay in the store, for time used, after each charge?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It is ridiculous for any business to think, as this one apparently did, that you can give away Quick charging as a perk, like much less valuable customer benefits, like free parking, and L2 charging, can be.

We will only "get what we pay for" from QC, when we begin to actually pay for it, IMO.

For an entire industry based on government loans / grants, and free or subsidized services, the current generation of EV drivers are going to "drive the Prius" before they pay the true market value for those products.

My opinion is that the free quick chargers, and even the $2.50 / hr quick charge rate offered up in Oregon, does more to hurt the industry than help. At some point, the handouts may vanish (watch what happens if an R gets in the white house), and then you'll have a bunch of shut down quick chargers. The price will have to go up on the service, and then the "revolt" will be "drive the Prius", hence complete failure of the infrastructure.

Then the blame game and finger pointing.

 

[edatoakrun]

...We will only "get what we pay for" from QC, when we begin to actually pay for it, IMO.

...My opinion is that the free quick chargers, and even the $2.50 / hr quick charge rate offered up in Oregon, does more to hurt the industry than help...

As far as I know, Southern Oregon QCs now charge a flat fee, $2.50, for any amount of time and kWh, which is possibly even worse than "free", IMO.

Otherwise, We are in complete agreement.

And anyone who has looked at investing in a public QC, using their own money, would undoubtedly come to the same conclusion.

 

[TonyWilliams]

And anyone who has looked at investing in a public QC, using their own money, would undoubtedly come to the same conclusion.

I work on this full time now, and I can tell you the I cringe when I hear more "free" money pouring in and the "won't pay more than wholesale cost of electricity, or free" for the service, or I'll "just drive my Prius".

None of these thoughts and actions are supporting the EV infrastructure, unless "free" government money is going to be the ongoing model (which I don't support).

Back on topic. First, had an awesome talk with the owner of this quick charger. I first suggested that he turn the unit back on, until the end of his billing cycle. He has already been exposed to the Demand Fee disease, so no additional financial damage will be done.

Then, in the interim time, we'll develop a plan that will carry this unit through (hopefully) the next billing cycles.

 

[abasile]

I work on this full time now, and I can tell you the I cringe when I hear more "free" money pouring in and the "won't pay more than wholesale cost of electricity, or free" for the service, or I'll "just drive my Prius".

None of these thoughts and actions are supporting the EV infrastructure, unless "free" government money is going to be the ongoing model (which I don't support).

I have to agree. After all, how is Ecotality/Blink working out for you? While I am supportive of tax credits and rebates that are open to all players in this space to help "prime the pump", I am not generally in favor of the government picking specific infrastructure companies as winners and losers.

Back on topic. First, had an awesome talk with the owner of this quick charger. I first suggested that he turn the unit back on, until the end of his billing cycle. He has already been exposed to the Demand Fee disease, so no additional financial damage will be done.

Thank you for the excellent work! I know that tbleakne was also planning to talk with the contractor and perhaps the owner, so hopefully that also went well. Our family would sure appreciate access to this QC over the next couple of weeks, for an above average amount of LEAF driving. (We'd rather leave the Prius behind.)

Then, in the interim time, we'll develop a plan that will carry this unit through (hopefully) the next billing cycles.

Yes, a "demand fee avoidance plan". In the long run, ideally QC manufacturers will incorporate demand fee management functionality into their firmware, the goal being to absolutely maximize output without triggering fees. Maybe that would include full power draw for just under 5 min. out of every 15 min., if the utility lets you get away with that, etc.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Sounds like CA needs to do more work to provide an acceptable climate for EV acceptance

 

[TonyWilliams]

The utility doesn't have any control of you using the 5 min charge in 15 model. The PUC controls that rule.

 

[DaveEV]

Back on topic. First, had an awesome talk with the owner of this quick charger. I first suggested that he turn the unit back on, until the end of his billing cycle. He has already been exposed to the Demand Fee disease, so no additional financial damage will be done.

Then, in the interim time, we'll develop a plan that will carry this unit through (hopefully) the next billing cycles.

Awesome work, Tony! Let us know how you plan on helping him manage his demand charges. Are the chargers on a separate meter from the business?

Yes, a "demand fee avoidance plan". In the long run, ideally QC manufacturers will incorporate demand fee management functionality into their firmware, the goal being to absolutely maximize output without triggering fees. Maybe that would include full power draw for just under 5 min. out of every 15 min., if the utility lets you get away with that, etc.

You could do that, but your demand charge ends up being a third of your peak draw. So instead of being charged for a 50 kW demand charge, you will be charged for a 17 kW demand charge.

You're better off just limiting demand to 17 kW peak. Easier on the grid and easier on the batteries, too. Of course if the car can take 50 kW and you only want 4 kWh the charge will take 15 minutes instead of 5 minutes...

I really hope that everyone who uses the DC QC station spends at least a couple bucks while they're waiting... at least then the owner will get something back for his trouble.

 

[abasile]

My wife stopped by the 7 Eleven a few minutes ago to see if the QC is back on as per Tony's suggestion to the owner. Unfortunately, only the L2 is powered up.

 

[tbleakne]

To help develop a plan to offer the owner of the SB 7-11 DC QC I have been studying the SCE tariff book, specifically commercial tariffs GS-1, GS-2, TOU EV-3 and TOU EV-4.

You can read about these at
http://www.sce.com/AboutSCE/Regulatory/tariffbooks/ratespricing/businessrates.htm

The owner has clearly made some mistakes that will be expensive and could have been avoided. It may be difficult now to get the costs low enough for him to turn the DC QC back on.

Up to now I have been assuming all we need to do is get Eaton to adjust the unit's maximum below 20 kW and the demand charges will go away. It looks like the SCE demand charge world is a little more complicated.

GS-1 has no demand charges, but if your usage exceeds 20 kW for any 3 months in the last 12 months you are kicked onto the GS-2 tariff, which does have demand charges.

GS-2 has a facilities (all-the-time) demand charge of $12/kW and
a summer-only additional demand charge of $17/kw for a summer total of $29/kw. Summer starts June 1 and runs to Oct 1.

Based upon the size of the Eaton unit and the wiring, presumably SCE put the EV meter on the GS-2 tariff, but demand never exceeded the 4kW drawn by the L2 until the DC QC went operational last month, so the bill was tolerable. Note that it appears you get hit with some demand charge for the peak draw of each month, no matter how small, as long as you are on this tariff.

Since the owner has received one big bill recently since turn-on, and we were still charging on it, he will also receive a second fat demand charge at the end of the current billing cycle, even though he has shut it down.

The slow way to get off the GS-2 and stop the demand charges is to wait 12 consecutive months during which you stay below 20 kW. However you can appeal to reduce this wait:

A customer who makes a permanent change in operating conditions that SCE, in its sole opinion,
anticipates will reduce the customer’s demand to 20 kW or less, may transfer to another applicable rate
schedule before completing 12 consecutive months at the reduced demand levels. Such customer shall
be required to sign the Permanent Change in Operating Conditions Declaration, Form 14-548.

It might be difficult to get SCE to accept a simple software parameter change within the Eaton unit as "permanent."

Once off GS-2, the owner could go onto TOU-EV-3 with a 20 kW limit and no demand charges.

TOU-EV-4 looks quite interesting because it is designed for > 20 kW EV charging. Presumably the owner never knew to ask for it.
The demand charge is a flat $12/kW with no summer add-on, but it gets better when there is also another meter for the non-EV portion of the business:

If an additional service is provided under this Schedule (EV account) in conjunction with the
customer’s regular General Service rate schedule, in each billing period, the Facilities Related
Demand Charge for the EV account will be determined using the demand, if any, which
exceeds the Facilities Related Demand for such General Service account. If the Facilities
Related Demand for the EV account does not exceed the Facilities Related Demand for the
General Service account, there will be NO Facilities Related Demand Charge for the EV account

The 7-11 has lots of refrigeration. It looks like we are in a good place if we can set the Eaton unit's maximum to a level comfortably below the minimum demand that the 7-11 draws.

There are also some features about solar co-generation. I have not digested them yet.

BTW for future reference it appears that the corresponding threshold for most municipal utilities, such as Glendale, Burbank, Pasadena, etc. is 30 kW

 

[Randy]

Another question to ask the owner that will play into the discussion....

Did he wire the DCFC into his existing panel / meter that the rest of the store is on, or is there a separate service? If it's wired into the rest of the store, then there is no way to make out by limiting the charge to 20kW (because the store load will add to that and put him over).

If he has it on a separate meter, then maybe something can be done to trim down the load on that meter to 20kW. And where is the L2 unit wired into?

 

[GregH]

The Eaton unit at the 7-11 shares a meter with something else... The two other units Jian is installing elsewhere will be in dedicated meters.. I'm not sure which rate plan he is on.

Does anyone know what the "voltage discount" is in the demand charge? I have no idea what kind of voltage SCE feeds to various size commercial sites.. The ranges in the GS2 tarif are 2-50kV, 50-220kV and 220kV (if memory serves)... Can anyone explain that?

 

[GregH]

Well, with (fairly) new snow in the mountains and a new L3 QC at the base of the mountains, I couldn't help myself! Had a nice half day skiing at Snow Valley today and couldn't have made the 210 mile journey if not for the 40kW charger. As you've heard it was derated from 50kW to 40kW but for most situations this only means an extra few minutes as most of the charge time is after ramping down from full power. So here's how it went:

60 mile drive from Irvine at 62-64mph landed at the QC with about 20 miles on the rangeometer.. Todd Warden from the AQMD was there charging his Leaf and we talked while his car charged. I plugged my scantool into his car to watch the charge. I plugged into the L2 EVSE in the meantime. He said he was there yesterday as well and there were two other Leafs in front of him in line for the charger! He also said there were two more QCs being installed nearby.

At about 75% SOC the QC stopped on his car which seemed odd, but he offered me the QC and he moved to L2 for a while. At about 75% the QC stopped on my car as well! (about 220gids) At this point we tried swapping again and lo and behold the QC took off and kept going... When he got down to about 12A (1.5x L2 speed) he took off and I tried the QC again on my car. Again it worked fine and I watched it ramp all the way down to 4A at which point I switched to L2 where I got 8A for a while but then it too ramped down... I was pretty full even though only 264gids 11/12 bars (as others here have observed). Just as with L2 charging, the Leaf does not allow the pack voltage to exceed 394V (4.1v/cell) under the QC.

Drove 27 miles up to Snow Valley and landed with 95gids (~31% SOC) 2.1mi/kWh.
"Dan" the electrical guy at the ski area let me plug into 110v for an L1 charge while I went skiing.
Finished L1 charging after 4 hours with 152gids (~52% SOC). Driving down the mountain got as high as 184gids (64%) from regen! Capped at 8mi/kWh on this leg.

Plugged in again at the QC and without stopping (like in the morning) went straight from 59% to 89% where I stopped the charge and drove back to Irvine.

Other than the spring conditions on the slope, it was an excellent day and I'm thrilled at the prospect of having more of these quick chargers available to us.

Greg, that's awesome! Thanks for the report! I'm in Tustin, and been waiting for that QC to do Snow Valley in the LEAF! So for those of us who don't yet have a Gid meter, you went from 11 bars to, what, approximately 2-3 bars remaining going from the QC to Snow Valley Resort, right? Did you have to go slow or pull-out for faster traffic at all going up? Did you briing along gears, or any other passengers?

And then going back down to the QC, you gained ~2.4kwh, which is about 1 1/2 bars (32 Gids * 80wh/gids)? So you didn't really need to charge at the ski resort at all then?

Also, approximately how long was the QC to get you back to Irvine?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm so excited that going to Snow Valley is now so doable in the LEAF, and especially since you are from my neck of the woods too! Just too cool!

Thanks! Yes I think it was 3 bars at Snow Valley and I more or less kept up with traffic (not too busy late morning). Solo drive.. Just me and my skis. Correct, did not need the L1 charge, but "Dan" was helpful in setting me up with 110V. I was able to get down the mountain mostly by throttling regen between D and ECO, hardly needed to touch brake or accel. Charge on the return was more than I needed (about 30min). Just enough time to walk to nearby Jack in the box and get tacos and into 7-11 for a drink and eat it by the car (no comments please on my poor diet!)

 

[walterbays]

To help develop a plan to offer the owner of the SB 7-11 DC QC I have been studying the SCE tariff book, specifically commercial tariffs GS-1, GS-2, TOU EV-3 and TOU EV-4.

Superb!

I wonder if some sort of fund raising and publicity event might be arranged: "The Oh Thank Heaven for San Bernadino 7-11 Slurpee-athon" Why?

This is the first and only businessman in California to have taken the risk to support EV quick charging, and he got burned badly. He deserves thanks, recognition, some extra sales, and some extra publicity.

He got burned by a needlessly complex rate schedule, a bad decision by PUC not to offer fair rates for EV charging, because seemingly the utility did not fully disclose his choices and their ramifications, and seemingly the PUC does not require utilities to make clear disclosures.

Right now somewhere the second businessman in California is about to open the second commercial quick charging station in the state. Too likely he does not fully understand his rate and service options, and the utility probably will not enlighten him. So the second QC station will also fail.

I do realize that any publicity about any problem will be seized upon by the Faux News types in their anti-EV crusade. But publicity here could also have several positive benefits:

A lot of Leaf drivers could come visit to say "thanks" and buy a slurpee or something - at least those within range now that there's no longer a QC :-(

Some ICE drivers could come see what's going on and buy a slurpee

The second (and third and thirtieth) business people to consider adding QC might notice and remember where to turn to get the full rate disclosures missing from their utilities. [Edit: forgot to write this point]

Local news could cover the human interest story: more publicity and business for him. The story might be that because PUC failed to act and because he made an honest mistake, he's being penalized and OC EV drivers are being penalized. For 12 months! Unless SCE relents and allows him to fix it.

Maybe next a follow-up story featuring the nice PR director of SCE signing the waiver, explaining how pro-environment SCE is, and how they'll have an engineer work with the owner to get the service and rates right.

*Maybe* - a real long shot - PUC realizes the part they played in this fiasco and realizes that under their regulations nobody but NRG might open any QC stations in California and the state will fall far short of its clean air and EV goals. PUC changes commercial EV wholesale rates to mirror the retail rates mandated in the NRG settlement. I.e., no demand charges to keep QC from starting up; peak rates much more expensive than overnight home rates to discourage frivolous use; rates generally no more than the cost of gasoline.