ChargePoint now charging $$$

[CubsFanRon]

Anyways, if I do hear back from either of them I'll post that response here if that's of interest to this audience. (If you want me to go away, I can do that too...)

Absolutely, please stick around and let us know if you get a response. A nontrivial number of posters on this forum actually are Volt+LEAF households.

Did heat back from Coulomb/ChargePoint - they pushed any responsibility for pricing onto the hosts, though they did have a little CYA comment:"While we do educate our hosts on kWh cost, all set pricing is at the discretion of the host."

I sent a similar letter to 350Green who operate the ChargePoint chargers for Walgreens. I don't expect a letter from them because I called their baby ugly.

 

[CubsFanRon]

When in reality - you probably should expect to pay the equivalent of a 25 mpg car driven on gas. At $4/gallon that's 15c/mile which comes out to really close to $2/hour.

Why? If I wanted a 25mpg car, I would still be driving my Passat. Would you pay that for DC fast charging?

A couple points:

1. You paid a huge price premium to have the option of driving electric or on gas with the Volt. Presumably you did this because you dislike burning gasoline for one reason or another. Presumably you'd be OK for paying $2/hour while shopping simply because this is not a lot of money - and public charging infrastructure is far from free.

I don't dislike burning gas, I dislike sending money to OPEC. Since those things are coupled right now, it's hard to separate them. "Burning electricity" is less directly tied to OPEC (where I live it's nuclear, coal, and natural gas sourced). So when I have an option, I prefer to defund the terrorists.

I may be an idealist, but im not stupid, and the math doesn't change - paying twice the going rate for energy is dumb, even if it's funding terrorists. There is an outlet mall near me that recently changed to pay charging. I won't charge there because it doesn't make sense economically. I may shop there, but the charging station isn't a draw.

2. Sure - we're talking about L2 here, but in real life an hour of L2 here and an hour of L2 there makes a big difference in EV range for those who need it.. Case in point today - 2 hours of L2 let me drive 90 mostly freeway miles without worrying about range. 1 hour of L2 would have been enough to make the trip driven a lot more carefully.

Is that worth $4.00 to you? How much extra range did you get? 20 miles? 20mpg Leaf! That's the headline I see from that. That's tongue-in-cheek, but you see it illustrates the failure of Pay L2 charging at above-market premium. The market won't bear that premium.

3. If you're only charging for convenience and don't need it for the EV miles - why are you charging at all? There's a chance you may be preventing someone who _needs_ the charge to make it do their destination.

uh, bummer dude? That is a debate topic much broader than this one, and that "need" is a feature of your vehicle, while mine came with the "always for convenience" feature. I'm not a jerk; I generally stick a charging protocol card in my window saying its ok to unplug me when it's for convenience (which you could argue is always), but there are times when my convenience outweighs your need, and that's my perogative. In your example above, that sounded like 1 hour of need and 1 hour of convenience. Weren't you "preventing someone who _needs_ the charge to make it do their destination?"

Is free charging at retail establishments a nice perk? Sure is! But at the same time I realize that installing and maintaining these charging stations is far from cheap and if you want to see this infrastructure stick around - expect to pay for it.

Perhaps a good compromise would be the hosting retailer offering discounted or free charging with a minimum purchase.

Kinda like parking validation?

That's a reasonable compromise, but note the tie-in to my original complaint: making the charging a perk provides an attraction for EVs, making it an additional fee doesn't.

All that said - do I particularly like paying $2/hour to charge at 240V/16A from a 32A capable station? No - biggest reason is that I feel that I'm paying twice as much as the 240V/32A capable vehicles - I think that cost to charge should be adjusted based on some combination of rate of charge, time spent charging and time spent plugged in (being plugged in and not charging prevents them from otherwise collecting money from actively charging customers).

I have to say I've never used a pay station, so I don't really know the difference between the advertised rate and the actual charged rate. These all seem reasonable to me.

 

[DaveEV]

When in reality - you probably should expect to pay the equivalent of a 25 mpg car driven on gas. At $4/gallon that's 15c/mile which comes out to really close to $2/hour.

Why? If I wanted a 25mpg car, I would still be driving my Passat. Would you pay that for DC fast charging?

You're not driving a 25 mpg car - if fuel cost/mile is the only reason you bought the Volt - well - I still think you're missing the cost of providing said infrastructure. Installing a few L2 stations will cost tens of thousands of dollars. When you charge at home - you're completely ignoring your infrastructure cost. Businesses are there to do business - not many will be willing to install charging stations if it costs them a significant amount of money.

I would expect pay more for DCQC - so that brings up a good point - how much does DCQC cost compared to $2/hour L2.

DCQC costs are generally expected to cost $7-15 per 30 minute session. At best, one might expect to get at most 15 kWh during that time. If we look at it from purely a $/kWh perspective, that's $0.47-$1.00 / kWh. Compared to 240V/16A L2 at $2/hour which is $0.53 / kWh. Which is why it's pretty clear that $2/hour is expensive and the upper end of what customers will be willing to pay for L2. But, 6.6kW capable plug-ins get to charge for half the cost - which is why I'm a proponent of adjusting rates based on a combination of maximum charge rate, delivered energy and time spent plugged in as appropriate.

I may be an idealist, but im not stupid, and the math doesn't change - paying twice the going rate for energy is dumb, even if it's funding terrorists. There is an outlet mall near me that recently changed to pay charging. I won't charge there because it doesn't make sense economically. I may shop there, but the charging station isn't a draw.

There is more than economic reasons to drive EV - such as your desire to avoid sending money to OPEC. Otherwise you would have bought a Cruze or some other efficient compact car for half the cost of the Volt which certainly makes more economic sense at this point in time.

Is that worth $4.00 to you? How much extra range did you get? 20 miles? 20mpg Leaf! That's the headline I see from that. That's tongue-in-cheek, but you see it illustrates the failure of Pay L2 charging at above-market premium. The market won't bear that premium.

Since I needed it, yes I would have paid - and I would have done it instead of driving the Prius. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought the LEAF but bought another hybrid instead.

Anyway - instead of looking at the incremental cost - you might want to look at the total cost for the day's driving - my total cost for the day's 90 miles of driving (assuming I paid $4 for 2 hours of L2) would have been about $6.50. Or about $0.07/mile - which still happens to be cheaper than driving the Prius which costs $0.09/mile right now around here ($4.15/gas, 45mpg). Looking at it that way from a pure economics perspective, I could pay nearly $3/hour and still come out to the same per-mile cost of driving the Prius - never mind some other vehicle which costs significantly more to drive.

 

[CubsFanRon]

There is more than economic reasons to drive EV - such as your desire to send money to OPEC.

Just to clarify, I have no desire to send money to OPEC, precisely the opposite as I stated earlier. Trying to keep the record straight.

 

[leafetarian]

1) They should have waited for such monetization until EVs became really mainstream similar to how SUVs have become mainstream!

2) Moreover, in a world where there is no price on carbon or pollution that causes various diseases, etc., it is crazy to make green EV drivers pay for making a cleaner choice when all they want is a temporary short time charging to reach home and fix range problem. Nobody in their right mind wants to stay at a charging station for 6-7 hours just to get free charging. Why is there not a similar cost added on to reflect price of pollution, BP oil spills, side effects of terrorists / crazy dictators being funded or whatever other reasons may be? By contrast, the society has become pretty aggressive over time to add extra costs on tobacco smokers and tobacco companies.

3) There is a nice synergy between retail business and L2 charging for convenience. I have driven LEAF for a year and usually I don't need to charge at public places but it gives an extra reason to patronize some businesses and hit two birds with a stone - finish some shopping / dining while getting car charged. With pay charging many people would be turned off and simply not go to these businesses. In times where many retail businesses are under threat from other retail competition and from mighty web / mobile shopping, this is a crazy step that will just hurt these retail businesses.

4) Some people feel that charging station infrastructure costs money and so we need to pay. But, that way, just plain old giant parking lots also cost lot of money in infrastructure costs. And even wifi, rest-rooms insides stores, shopping cars, plastic bags, etc. all cost money. These are all costs of doing business and help improve brand value, attract more customers, etc.
Since LEAF takes in about 3.8kWh in an hour, assuming cost of electricity of 10 c/kWh, it might cost these companies about 40 cents for that hour. I guess it is better to give away about 40 cents in charging as customers might end up spending more than that 40 cents.

 

[sdittm1]

Retailers will gladly pay for your charge once they figure out that EV owners will spend more time in their stores while plugged in.

 

[thankyouOB]

one key to infrastructure and range anxiety is for employers to add chargers.
they have the ability to do it and can be given the incentive in areas that regulate clean air issues, such as Southern California.
Employers are already required to do surveys for the air resources agency in their locale in CA, and there are incentives and penalties for setting up carpools, etc. why not add some for EVSEs?

 

[sp4rk]

I charged my Leaf up for the first time, yesterday, on a Level 3.

Now that's what I call a charge. Met another Leaf owner (thought I had been iced!) ... we chatted for 15 minutes and off I went with a full charge.

He and I simply do not understand ANY Wallgreens even bother with Level 2.

I think I paid $7 for the rapid charge. I have no qualms paying for that.

Cheaper than gas? $5 per gallon? I was getting 23 before. $20 for 100 miles? $7 for up to 100?

I would only pay for level 2 IF ...

- I NEEDED a charge ... I have a level 2 at home ... and if I were at a place that had me stuck there for 2 hours. Party, movie theater, restaurant.

It is going to give the industry a really weird PR issue when people realise that these "cool" looking chargers at Walgreens are basically useless.

I am also clueless as to the relationship between Wags, Columb and 350green.

Who pays whom?

The Charjit (l3) card apparently works on both L2 and L3. But Chargepoint only works on L2. Huh?

And on the Chargepoint screen it says 350green. When I asked 350green the answer i got was even more ambiguous.

But, do we care?

 

[grommet]

I am also clueless as to the relationship between Wags, Columb and 350green.

Who pays whom?

Walgreens selected 350Green as their provider to "operate and maintain" their EV charging infrastructure. 350Green uses various vendors for hardware and/or services... Coulomb (ChargePoint), SemaConnect, Efacec, etc.

So, for any ChargePoint network stations... Walgreens "pays" 350Green, which happens to pay Coulomb. ;-)

The actual details of the contract negotiated between Walgreens and 350Green isn't known... including any possible revenue sharing.

 

[ztanos]

1) They should have waited for such monetization until EVs became really mainstream similar to how SUVs have become mainstream!

2) Moreover, in a world where there is no price on carbon or pollution that causes various diseases, etc., it is crazy to make green EV drivers pay for making a cleaner choice when all they want is a temporary short time charging to reach home and fix range problem. Nobody in their right mind wants to stay at a charging station for 6-7 hours just to get free charging. Why is there not a similar cost added on to reflect price of pollution, BP oil spills, side effects of terrorists / crazy dictators being funded or whatever other reasons may be? By contrast, the society has become pretty aggressive over time to add extra costs on tobacco smokers and tobacco companies.

3) There is a nice synergy between retail business and L2 charging for convenience. I have driven LEAF for a year and usually I don't need to charge at public places but it gives an extra reason to patronize some businesses and hit two birds with a stone - finish some shopping / dining while getting car charged. With pay charging many people would be turned off and simply not go to these businesses. In times where many retail businesses are under threat from other retail competition and from mighty web / mobile shopping, this is a crazy step that will just hurt these retail businesses.

4) Some people feel that charging station infrastructure costs money and so we need to pay. But, that way, just plain old giant parking lots also cost lot of money in infrastructure costs. And even wifi, rest-rooms insides stores, shopping cars, plastic bags, etc. all cost money. These are all costs of doing business and help improve brand value, attract more customers, etc.
Since LEAF takes in about 3.8kWh in an hour, assuming cost of electricity of 10 c/kWh, it might cost these companies about 40 cents for that hour. I guess it is better to give away about 40 cents in charging as customers might end up spending more than that 40 cents.

In response to:

#2, Anytime you buy a new car, if the mpgs are below a certain rate, you are required to pay a gas guzzler charge.

#3, Agreed. I just wish business would realize how much the 3rd party corps are overcharging and install a unit themselves. With L2 it would be simple, especially if they did a homemade EVSE.

#4, I agree, I wouldn't pay for lvl 2 unless I was stranded and had no other option, L3, however, I would be ok paying a "reasonable" rate. But it does cost money to install and maintain the charger itself, so they are taking that money into account. An L2 charger costs a lot more than a router from Best Buy.

 

[ChrisH]

I tried to make a planned trip from Gig Harbor to Seattle. Looked up ChargePoint stations, and found one @ 4th/Madison in the garage. $26 to park there for the afternoon (5 hours).

I could not find any of the City of Seattle stations that are supposedly right around the corner.

BUT

The charging stations are all operated by Blink network. My understanding was that because ChargePoint listed the station, that it was in their network, but apparently this isn't the case and one must establish a separate account with Blink in order to charge.


Had I known that, I would have done so in advance, but with :05 mins left to a key meeting, I didn't have the time. They also charged $2/hour.

BUT

Guess what? There was 3 other Leafs there already, and it was only stupid luck that the 4tth bay was being parked in by the valet who had a high-end car in there. My concern is that as EV's catch on that there will not be enough charging stations available to support the market. I can see that happeneing already.

Also, were I to have completely charged my vehicle there, it would have easily been another $8-10 for a L2 charge. Somehow I think this defeats the purpose of unstrapping yourself from OPEC, only to cut a partial payment to the property owner. If I paid a dailly charge to top-up from a commute from Tacoma area, I'd likely be looking at another $200 to the EV station owner at the building, on top of already paying a premium for a parking space. That's not an appealing combo.

Alas, my car would not charge without my payment and subscription to Blink's network. With 42 miles showing on the clock, I hit ECO mode and tried to keep it @ 60mph or less, and made it home with 4 miles remaining on the energy meter.

Whew!

 

[grommet]

ChrisH, not like it really matters now... but Blink doesn't bill anything for their L2 charging yet. (They just started rolling out the billing capable software.) All you need is a Blink RFID card, and an account with one of the (free) memberships... and it's still $0/hr for now.

Also, ChargePoint doesn't list Blink network locations (and vice versa). You must have been looking at the wrong location.

 

[ztanos]

Also, were I to have completely charged my vehicle there, it would have easily been another $8-10 for a L2 charge. Somehow I think this defeats the purpose of unstrapping yourself from OPEC, only to cut a partial payment to the property owner. If I paid a dailly charge to top-up from a commute from Tacoma area, I'd likely be looking at another $200 to the EV station owner at the building, on top of already paying a premium for a parking space. That's not an appealing combo.

That doesn't sound appealing at all and, luckily for me, Atlanta doesn't charge for parking in most places, yet. But $2/hour isn't really that bad (depending on how long you stay) on top of a rate that you are already expecting to pay. This money is going to local owners and that is the point of getting out from under OPEC.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I tried to make a planned trip from Gig Harbor to Seattle. Looked up ChargePoint stations, and found one @ 4th/Madison in the garage. $26 to park there for the afternoon (5 hours).

I could not find any of the City of Seattle stations that are supposedly right around the corner.

BUT

The charging stations are all operated by Blink network. My understanding was that because ChargePoint listed the station, that it was in their network, but apparently this isn't the case and one must establish a separate account with Blink in order to charge.


Had I known that, I would have done so in advance, but with :05 mins left to a key meeting, I didn't have the time. They also charged $2/hour.

BUT

Guess what? There was 3 other Leafs there already, and it was only stupid luck that the 4tth bay was being parked in by the valet who had a high-end car in there. My concern is that as EV's catch on that there will not be enough charging stations available to support the market. I can see that happeneing already.

Also, were I to have completely charged my vehicle there, it would have easily been another $8-10 for a L2 charge. Somehow I think this defeats the purpose of unstrapping yourself from OPEC, only to cut a partial payment to the property owner. If I paid a dailly charge to top-up from a commute from Tacoma area, I'd likely be looking at another $200 to the EV station owner at the building, on top of already paying a premium for a parking space. That's not an appealing combo.

Alas, my car would not charge without my payment and subscription to Blink's network. With 42 miles showing on the clock, I hit ECO mode and tried to keep it @ 60mph or less, and made it home with 4 miles remaining on the energy meter.

Whew!

glad you made it Chris and your concern is valid. the public charging system has been slow to roll out and its nowhere near the level promised by the RV Highway Project, but it is still growing. we need to add legislation to eliminate "ICE'd" parking and add much more.

if you have not done so and you are on Facebook, some local groups. can help keep track of what is up and which stations are fritzing out.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/162442713806531/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ChrisH]

Thanks for the details. I got the Blink charging location off of the Car Nav computer. I probably (incorrectly) assumed it was all ChargePoint, but there's also no way to understand whose network is being offered in the display. The point was really just a need statement that perhaps there would be a way to avoid having a ton of charging key ring cards. I have enough of those from the grocery stores, and at this point I have more loyalty cards than keys.... I can see why having a single point of administratin would be a problem since the tech is non-proprietry, and no complaints on my end, realistically.

ChrisH, not like it really matters now... but Blink doesn't bill anything for their L2 charging yet. (They just started rolling out the billing capable software.) All you need is a Blink RFID card, and an account with one of the (free) memberships... and it's still $0/hr for now.

Also, ChargePoint doesn't list Blink network locations (and vice versa). You must have been looking at the wrong location.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Thanks for the details. I got the Blink charging location off of the Car Nav computer. I probably (incorrectly) assumed it was all ChargePoint, but there's also no way to understand whose network is being offered in the display. The point was really just a need statement that perhaps there would be a way to avoid having a ton of charging key ring cards. I have enough of those from the grocery stores, and at this point I have more loyalty cards than keys.... I can see why having a single point of administratin would be a problem since the tech is non-proprietry, and no complaints on my end, realistically.

ChrisH, not like it really matters now... but Blink doesn't bill anything for their L2 charging yet. (They just started rolling out the billing capable software.) All you need is a Blink RFID card, and an account with one of the (free) memberships... and it's still $0/hr for now.

Also, ChargePoint doesn't list Blink network locations (and vice versa). You must have been looking at the wrong location.

http://www.recargo.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is a good "non denominational" website

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Anyone know if this is a decent deal for a business owner who might like to install an EVSE and just wants to break even on the expenses?

http://www.chargepoint.com/jumpstart/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have these service plans listed but I don't see any specifics.

 

[WetEV]

http://www.recargo.com is a good "non denominational" website

Also http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mazdaboi]

2 Chargepoints in my city. One of them is 2.00 per hr the other has beeen OOC since installed. Other Chargepoints are free in the area. Unless its at a state government facility and they do a flat rate of $5 per session. Still not bad if you plan on being there over 2 hrs.