EVSE Home Assessment Reports

[EVDRIVER]

Frankly, I think they are doing the Nissan Leaf customers a disservice if they plan on charging everyone around $2200 regardless of the complexity of the install as they appear to be doing.

Face it - a 20A 120V plug is dead cheap to install and will provide 1.9 kW of charging power allowing you to charge your Leaf from dead empty to full appx 12 hours. For a simple install, you will be able to get an electrician to install this for a couple hundred bucks in just about any garage that has a service panel in it. An EVSE that will plug in to this will be available for $500 or less by the time the Leaf comes out - worst case you live with the 1.4 kW trickle charger that's included and wait for AV to stop ripping people off thanks to competition. Service panels are more likely to have room for an additional single-pole circuit breaker - having room for a fixed double-pole is a lot less likely in any house more than 20 years old. And many garages may already be wired with a dedicated 20A 120V circuit.

Charge times with a 20A 120V EVSE won't be whole lot longer than the 8 hour full charge from the Level 2 3.3 kW charger and will be more than sufficient for the fast majority of uses. A charge rate of 7.6 miles/hour (1.9 kW) compared to 13.2 miles/hour just won't matter that much for most home use.

Now, if the Leaf was shipping with a 6.6 kW charger - then we might have a real incentive to install a fixed EVSE, but by that time I suspect that Level 2 EVSEs will just about be a commodity item - you'll be able to get them for a couple hundred bucks and have it installed for a couple hundred more.

This is mostly accurate and the install labor is very high for some specific customers, not to mention Nissan blew it by not offering a 6.6kw charger and early buyers will feel this pain charging, spending bucks for an EVSE and on resale as well.

 

[AndyH]

This is mostly accurate and the install labor is very high for some specific customers, not to mention Nissan blew it by not offering a 6.6kw charger and early buyers will feel this pain charging, spending bucks for an EVSE and on resale as well.

Ooooh! Ooooh! Let me help! It's too heavy, too!

I'm feeling a LOT better about Nissan and AV today. I (my business) requested wholesale EVSE price quotes from a couple of manufacturers. The first one back is more than twice the cost of the $700ish AV unit.

By the time I mark it up for resale it'll be a $2800 option with NO installation and DIY permitting and inspection - who wants in? :lol:

 

[evnow]

I'm feeling a LOT better about Nissan and AV today. I (my business) requested wholesale EVSE price quotes from a couple of manufacturers. The first one back is more than twice the cost of the $700ish AV unit.

By the time I mark it up for resale it'll be a $2800 option with NO installation and DIY permitting and inspection - who wants in? :lol:

I won't be surprised if Nissan haggled with AV quite a bit about the install price and brought it down.

 

[EVDRIVER]

This is mostly accurate and the install labor is very high for some specific customers, not to mention Nissan blew it by not offering a 6.6kw charger and early buyers will feel this pain charging, spending bucks for an EVSE and on resale as well.

Ooooh! Ooooh! Let me help! It's too heavy, too!

I'm feeling a LOT better about Nissan and AV today. I (my business) requested wholesale EVSE price quotes from a couple of manufacturers. The first one back is more than twice the cost of the $700ish AV unit.

By the time I mark it up for resale it'll be a $2800 option with NO installation and DIY permitting and inspection - who wants in? :lol:

Are these commercial models? Are they made from plastic or steel? Was that high quantity pricing? Output level? The AV EVSE from AV seems quite basic and low cost and is made from plastic. Many of the EVSE MFG won't quote deep pricing until you are able to negotiate a large order and I have yet to see any plastic 6.6kw basic consumer models yet. The AV model is also not UL approved yet and has not had extensive field testing like others out there for some time with other connectors, perhaps they will not make the end of year and supply a better model I would prefer to have at least a 9kw steel unit in my garage at three times the cost and put it in myself, I see the plastic model and their handle not looking very durable but is is made for margin. Besides, I expect EV home chargers to get more powerful quickly if not just for marketing reasons.

 

[evnow]

Are these commercial models? Are they made from plastic or steel? Was that high quantity pricing? Output level? The AV EVSE from AV seems quite basic and low cost and is made from plastic.

Metal looks industrial - plastic is what consumers expect. Just see the mini-e charger ...

 

[AndyH]

Are these commercial models? Are they made from plastic or steel? Was that high quantity pricing? Output level? The AV EVSE from AV seems quite basic and low cost and is made from plastic. Many of the EVSE MFG won't quote deep pricing until you are able to negotiate a large order and I have yet to see any plastic 6.6kw basic consumer models yet. The AV model is also not UL approved yet and has not had extensive field testing like others out there for some time with other connectors, perhaps they will not make the end of year and supply a better model I would prefer to have at least a 9kw steel unit in my garage at three times the cost and put it in myself, I see the plastic model and their handle not looking very durable but is is made for margin. Besides, I expect EV home chargers to get more powerful quickly if not just for marketing reasons.

The EVSE doesn't have a 3.3kW/6.6kW limitation, though, does it? L2 EVSE must be able to push up to 80A, and per J1772, the EV must be wired from the connector to the charger for the full 80A capability even if using a smaller charger.

There ahem...might or might not be an image of the plastic wall-mounted device on this forum...

 

[EVDRIVER]

Are these commercial models? Are they made from plastic or steel? Was that high quantity pricing? Output level? The AV EVSE from AV seems quite basic and low cost and is made from plastic. Many of the EVSE MFG won't quote deep pricing until you are able to negotiate a large order and I have yet to see any plastic 6.6kw basic consumer models yet. The AV model is also not UL approved yet and has not had extensive field testing like others out there for some time with other connectors, perhaps they will not make the end of year and supply a better model I would prefer to have at least a 9kw steel unit in my garage at three times the cost and put it in myself, I see the plastic model and their handle not looking very durable but is is made for margin. Besides, I expect EV home chargers to get more powerful quickly if not just for marketing reasons.

The EVSE doesn't have a 3.3kW/6.6kW limitation, though, does it? L2 EVSE must be able to push up to 80A, and per J1772, the EV must be wired from the connector to the charger for the full 80A capability even if using a smaller charger.

There ahem...might or might not be an image of the plastic wall-mounted device on this forum...

The cord and connector are rated to 80A each EVSE has a different rating most likely based on the relays and internal wire spec. The AV EVSE can do 6.6 kw max, it will communicate that to the connected car of your choice and the charger will adjust accordingly.

 

[AndyH]

The cord and connector are rated to 80A each EVSE has a different rating most likely based on the relays and internal wire spec. The AV EVSE can do 6.6 kw max, it will communicate that to the connected car of your choice and the charger will adjust accordingly.

Right. J1772 defines the limits; EVSE manufactures don't have to go to those limits. Other company's L2 products don't support AV's 6.6kW max. Sorry...stuck in 'spec' mode...

The AV EVSE install system looks very good overall so far.

 

[steveD]

I saw a post by RAT in which he mentioned our discussion during the site assessment. I apparently did not communicate effectively regarding the reasons for the 20A GFCI option. The 20A GFCI is proposed for use in the possible event of charging difficulty. If the Level 2 (40A) charger does not charge the car battery, the level 1 "trickle charger" can be plugged in to the 20A receptacle to see if the car can be charged independent of the level 2 charging dock. If the level 1 charger does charge the car, it may be indicative of a problem with the level 2 charger. If neither the level 2 charger or the level 1 charger can recharge the car, the problem is probably not in the external chargers.

It is important that all the power of the 20A circuit be available for the level 1 charger. If the 20A circuit feeds numerous loads, it is likely the 20A breaker will trip due to excessive loading. For this reason, it is recommended that customers who desire the level 1 charger capability should install a dedicated 20 circuit.

I hope this clarification helps.
SteveD,

 

[evnow]

It is important that all the power of the 20A circuit be available for the level 1 charger. If the 20A circuit feeds numerous loads, it is likely the 20A breaker will trip due to excessive loading. For this reason, it is recommended that customers who desire the level 1 charger capability should install a dedicated 20 circuit.

Steve, welcome.

Isn't the idea of a portable level 1 charger that we can use it in case of emergencies anywhere ? How does that square with what you are recommending ?

 

[muus]

The 20A GFCI is proposed for use in the possible event of charging difficulty.

A 20A 120v circuit is not necessary as the Leaf will only draw 12A from a 120V plug. A standard (15A) plug will work as long as you are certain nothing else is plugged into the same circuit. I can only guess that a 20A circuit is recommended to avoid people tripping the breaker by plugging something else in the same circuit. If you were to install a dedicated 120v 15A single plug (not very common) then there would be no problem. When drawing 12A (%80 of 15A) that only leaves 3A for anything else you might plug into the same plug (360 watts). It wouldn't take much extra load to trip the breaker.

 

[garygid]

The 20-amp breaker is a "conservative" specification that allows "proper" continuous-load capacity for any "legal" Level 1 EVSE, 12-amp or 15-amp.

However, for a "short-duration" test, most 15-amp breakers will tolerate a 15-amp load, at least for awhile.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The 20A GFCI is proposed for use in the possible event of charging difficulty.

A 20A 120v circuit is not necessary as the Leaf will only draw 12A from a 120V plug. A standard (15A) plug will work as long as you are certain nothing else is plugged into the same circuit. I can only guess that a 20A circuit is recommended to avoid people tripping the breaker by plugging something else in the same circuit. If you were to install a dedicated 120v 15A single plug (not very common) then there would be no problem. When drawing 12A (%80 of 15A) that only leaves 3A for anything else you might plug into the same plug (360 watts). It wouldn't take much extra load to trip the breaker.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "dedicated 15 amp circuit" in practice, at least not installed by any self-respecting electrician. 15 amp circuits are used for lighting and living room and bedroom receptacles (much now require arc fault breakers). Anything that is expected to have a heating appliance or other high drain device should be a 20 amp circuit.

 

[muus]

The 20-amp breaker is a "conservative" specification that allows "proper" continuous-load capacity for any "legal" Level 1 EVSE, 12-amp or 15-amp.

There is nothing illegal with drawing 12A continuous from a 15A plug. The code allows for a maximum continuous draw from any cicuit of up to 80% its rated capacity (12A for 15A, 16A for 20A...)

I don't think there is such a thing as a "dedicated 15 amp circuit" in practice

I beg to differ on that. In my house I have several plugs in my workshop and garage that are on dedicated circuits.

Anything that is expected to have a heating appliance or other high drain device should be a 20 amp circuit.

There are very few "high drain devices" that run on 120v as it would cause an imbalanced load on the transformer. Any device that runs on 120v can run on a standard 15A plug. In my kitchen I even have "split" plugs meaning two separate circuits per plug pair. This allows running a toaster and kettle at the same time.

Many older houses (and some times even new ones) have plugs from many different rooms and lights run on the same circuit so this could be a problem. However if you are able to identify everything that is connected on same circuit as the plug you intend on using and know for sure nothing else will be used while the car is charging then it will work fine. If the car required more than 12A (13-16 amps) then a 20A circuit would be necessary. Nissan wouldn't supply the car with an emergency plug that wouldn't work on 95% of the plugs out there.

 

[mwalsh]

They weren't worried about the 120v being 20a in my assessment. Just that it be dedicated (at least with respect to load while charging) and GFI protected.

 

[steveD]

evnow,

Yes, I would think the level 1 charge capability might have multiple uses. Whenever is is used, the amount of power it consumes from the 20A circuit will be significant.

Steve

 

[AndyH]

evnow,

Yes, I would think the level 1 charge capability might have multiple uses. Whenever is is used, the amount of power it consumes from the 20A circuit will be significant.

Steve

Folks can install whatever they desire in their garages, and are free to over-install. I understand that completely - I ran heavier wire for the 220 circuit when I wired my garage just in case I upgraded my MIG welder at some point.

But there is no reason to allow for more than 12A for the Leaf because that's all the EVSE will allow to car to use. Basic L1 charge: 12A. L1 charge and run the AC to precool the cabin: 12A. L1 charge and turn the heater on full: 12A.

Sure - if one wanted to have a 20A circuit in the garage (air compressor? huge beer fridge? hacked EVSE to draw 16A?) they can - but let's make that clear that we're choosing to overspec so that new folks don't read that as 'the Leaf needs a super-circuit'...

Andy

 

[steveD]

Andy,

Good info, can you tell me where you got your numbers. We are going by Aerovironment information regarding circuit needs.

Steve

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I beg to differ on that. In my house I have several plugs in my workshop and garage that are on dedicated circuits.

There are very few "high drain devices" that run on 120v as it would cause an imbalanced load on the transformer. Any device that runs on 120v can run on a standard 15A plug. In my kitchen I even have "split" plugs meaning two separate circuits per plug pair. This allows running a toaster and kettle at the same time.

I'm just telling you that won't cut it here. Even dining rooms are now required to have 20amp circuits as they assume you might have a hot plate on a server.

If you're putting an outlet in the garage for power tools or whatever and want to save a couple bucks by using #14 wire and a 15A breaker knock yourself out. You will likely get away with a 12A continuous load on a 15A circuit, but I certainly wouldn't size it that way doing an installation specifically for that purpose.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I beg to differ on that. In my house I have several plugs in my workshop and garage that are on dedicated circuits.

There are very few "high drain devices" that run on 120v as it would cause an imbalanced load on the transformer. Any device that runs on 120v can run on a standard 15A plug. In my kitchen I even have "split" plugs meaning two separate circuits per plug pair. This allows running a toaster and kettle at the same time.

I'm just telling you that won't cut it here. Even dining rooms are now required to have 20amp circuits as they assume you might have a hot plate on a server.

If you're putting an outlet in the garage for power tools or whatever and want to save a couple bucks by using #14 wire and a 15A breaker knock yourself out. You will likely get away with a 12A continuous load on a 15A circuit, but I certainly wouldn't size it that way doing an installation specifically for that purpose.

No way on 14G for outlets and 15A in a garage is a bad call and won't pass some places.