July 16 Survey Email

[evnow]

Some screenshots here ...

http://www.leafowner.com/Pictures/view/setdisplay/setid/72157624517927854.aspx

 

[prberg]

I just took the survey. I think that 5 years is not enough coverage. So if the pack completely fails at 6 years I am on the hook for a whole new battery. Ouch.

I think 8 years is pretty good. I would pay a modest amount to get the 10 year warranty. For me it's just that Nissan has touted their experience in the battery field and their previous EV's. I feel that they should have the confidence to back their battery for at least 8-10 years. I certainly don't expect the battery to be at 80-90% after those 8-10 years but I want to know that if it fails or the capacity really drops off, they will get me back up and running. There could be a deductible that kicks in after 5 or 8 years maybe?

I just want to know that they are confident in their pack... and 5 years doesn't make me feel all that safe.

Just my $.02.

-Peter

 

[sjfotos]

I hope I didn't bias the results too much for all you 8-year folk. I am of the opinion that I want nothing to do with today's generation of batteries after 2015, and I made that clear through my answers. In fact I've decided I'm going to lease, and turn my Gen 1 Leaf in on something better in three years -- hopefully early in 2014. So I even told them a 3 year/36K lease would be OK with me!

This is really where I am at as well. First gen product, first gen of these batteries in a mass market vehicle...in three to five years things will be very different.

 

[garygid]

A battery pack will (almost) "never" be replaced with a "new" one. Usually a "short-range" pack will be due to a single cell (or a couple), and the pack will most likely be "repaired" by replacing the module containing the cell with a "new" module (possibly a "reconditioned" module - used cells, where the weak cell has been replaced).

Just AFTER the warranty period, if you notice the performance is down, a single module replacement might be $500 to $1000, including the "diagnostics" and labor.

My question was not IF SOME BMS COULD KNOW the offending cell (of course it can), but WILL the LEAF'S BMS warn US (not just the service people at the dealership) of weakening cells. I doubt that it will "expose" that information to us.

Also, will the warranty be for 5% loss per year, or only for 25% loss, anytime during the warranty period?

 

[Stoaty]

My decision between the Volt and Leaf keeps changing. It was just posted over at gm-volt.com that the Volt will not meet CARB AT-PZEV. This means two things: the engine is not as clean (more pollution), and no $5,000 tax credit in California (and no tax credit for other states that may offer one for these vehicles--total of 17 I think). This might tip the advantage back to the Leaf.

 

[Frank]

Also, will the warranty be for 5% loss per year, or only for 25% loss, anytime during the warranty period?

This got me thinking about whether the warranty would be prorated, like the warranties on ICE vehicle's battery and tires. For example, if a cell or module fails after 3 years and the pack is warranted for 5 years, would Nissan only cover 2/5ths of the expense to repair the pack?

 

[Jimmydreams]

I think Nissan is wondering (and rightly so) how the batteries will last when in the hands of your average, everyday driver. Let's face it, until now, EV's have been for only the EV fanatics and tree-huggers. They care and THINK about how they drive. Not so for your average Joe the plumber.

An EV fan doesn't race to each and every light. Joe the plumber does. Loss factors will vary widely between these two groups. Nissan is trying to straddle the line of expected results across this spectrum.

Also, consider that the loss factors probably won't affect many on this board. People here will drive conscientiously and will experience much lower losses and much longer battery life. It will be the perception of the general public after 3-5 years that will determine if your resale value is high or low.

I would like to lease because a Gen 1 anything will see lots of improvements in 3 years. But I drive 22K a year....buying those extra miles may prove too expensive.

The devil's in the details.....

 

[evnow]

I think Nissan will warranty a particular % of charge after every year / miles driven. Something like tires. May be 5% or so is considered normal "wear" each year.

But it will be interesting to see how Leaf owners can tell whether the warranty is being met - a diagnostics would have to be run for sure by the dealer. May be the car shows the fully charged capacity ?

To me the other interesting thing to note is that GM decided to warranty "only" for 8 years - even though that removes them from categories like AT-PZEV - which needs 10 year/150K warranty. So, even though Volt uses only 50% of the battery they still couldn't 10 years - or more probably couldn't reach 150K miles.

 

[Stoaty]

To me the other interesting thing to note is that GM decided to warranty "only" for 8 years - even though that removes them from categories like AT-PZEV - which needs 10 year/150K warranty. So, even though Volt uses only 50% of the battery they still couldn't 10 years - or more probably couldn't reach 150K miles.

I think it is the other way around--they didn't achieve the pollution standards for AT-PZEV, so were not required to provide the 10 year / 150K warranty. See this article:

http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/17/volt-doesnt-meet-carb-designation-californians-lose-5000-tax-incentive/

Please correct me if my understanding of the article is wrong.

 

[AndyH]

To me the other interesting thing to note is that GM decided to warranty "only" for 8 years - even though that removes them from categories like AT-PZEV - which needs 10 year/150K warranty. So, even though Volt uses only 50% of the battery they still couldn't 10 years - or more probably couldn't reach 150K miles.

I think it is the other way around--they didn't achieve the pollution standards for AT-PZEV, so were not required to provide the 10 year / 150K warranty. See this article:

http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/17/volt-doesnt-meet-carb-designation-californians-lose-5000-tax-incentive/

Please correct me if my understanding of the article is wrong.

We really shouldn't try to compare the Volt and Leaf battery, folks. The Volt is a hybrid. The design goals are different and pack use and management goals are different - because the PRIMARY driver for their decisions are emissions management.

I don't think GM wants to make many of these as they're not going to make money for a while and they need to cut their losses as much as possible - they still need to repay the US taxpayer for the ~60% of the company that we own. So - they don't necessarily NEED or WANT to have a bunch of treehuggers buying the car - they'd rather sell pickup trucks and SUVs.

 

[efusco]

We really shouldn't try to compare the Volt and Leaf battery, folks. The Volt is a hybrid. The design goals are different and pack use and management goals are different - because the PRIMARY driver for their decisions are emissions management.

I don't think GM wants to make many of these as they're not going to make money for a while and they need to cut their losses as much as possible - they still need to repay the US taxpayer for the ~60% of the company that we own. So - they don't necessarily NEED or WANT to have a bunch of treehuggers buying the car - they'd rather sell pickup trucks and SUVs.

I agree with you in part, but I think the target audiences for the two vehicles have a LOT of overlap and, therefore, some comparison is necessary.

If someone wants an EV, but knows they'll only get a 5 year warranty and a range of 70 miles at the end of that warranty and for a couple thousand dollars more get a Volt with unlimited range and longer warranty I think the decision between the two becomes much easier.

 

[Gonewild]

I filled out my survey and said I would cancel my reservation if it is announced at 5 year/ 60,000 miles. I told them I would buy the car in 3 months if it had a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty and would pay for a warranty 10 year/150,000 mile warranty no more then $1,000.

 

[AndyH]

If someone wants an EV...

In the real world I agee that's there's some overlap. That's unfortunate, because the Volt isn't an EV - it's a hybrid. It's competition is the Prius and Insight and other hybrids. Only the GM marketing machine is trying to wrap a hybrid in EV clothes and sell it to us. :evil:

If I'm shopping for an EV I know enough to shop for something without a tailpipe.

I don't think it's in EVers best interest to fall-into GM's marketing and lump the Volt into the pool with 'real' EVs.

 

[Nubo]

We really shouldn't try to compare the Volt and Leaf battery, folks. The Volt is a hybrid. The design goals are different and pack use and management goals are different

Agreed. Since there's a gas engine ready to kick in, they can more easily afford to discontinue battery drain at a higher SOC, and charge to lower SOC because EV range isn't all that important to them or their drivers. Their batteries will lead more sheltered lives. And plenty of Volt owners, imho, will drift away from pre-charging and use the car primarily in Hybrid mode. If GM has made that same prediction, they will have taken that into account for warranty purposes.

 

[AndyH]

We really shouldn't try to compare the Volt and Leaf battery, folks. The Volt is a hybrid. The design goals are different and pack use and management goals are different

Agreed. Since there's a gas engine ready to kick in, they can more easily afford to discontinue battery drain at a higher SOC, and charge to lower SOC because EV range isn't all that important to them or their drivers. Their batteries will lead more sheltered lives. And plenty of Volt owners, imho, will drift away from pre-charging and use the car primarily in Hybrid mode. If GM has made that same prediction, they will have taken that into account for warranty purposes.

Fabulous point! And since 'Joe Public' is more likely to NOT plug-in, the ICE will run more and that will increase the emissions profile -- and that's probably the biggest ZEV-category killer! It's not about the battery at all!

Thank you!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

jus filled out the survey and forgive me for NOT wandering thru these posts which really came on fast.

i wonder if the Nissan has tested the battery to reliably last 8 years but wants to minimize the potential liability due to owner misuse?

or will the results of the survey encourage Nissan to lie?

hmmm.

 

[evnow]

I think it is the other way around--they didn't achieve the pollution standards for AT-PZEV, so were not required to provide the 10 year / 150K warranty. See this article:

http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/17/volt-doesnt-meet-carb-designation-californians-lose-5000-tax-incentive/

Please correct me if my understanding of the article is wrong.

Thats what Statik thinks - but I don't see the basis for that. Note the source of his article talks only about warranty.

 

[evnow]

i wonder if the Nissan has tested the battery to reliably last 8 years but wants to minimize the potential liability due to owner misuse?

I read the survey as mainly talking about capacity loss over years - not really reliability (i.e. failure).

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The disturbing thing about that survey is you can see the machinery in motion behind it. Basically the adults at Nissan are presented with an issue that could do them a lot of financial damage. They know that how well these batteries will hold up is a huge wild card and they're trying to assess how much of that risk/cost they can shift to the customer before he squeals. The financial case for owning this car is pretty ugly even if the battery has a strong warranty, and some scenarios are downright horrifying for an owner.

That's why you see all those questions basically trying to determine just how devoted a tree hugger your are. The decision making that arises from those stats is interesting to think about. If all the reservation holders are devout environmentalists the takeaway from that by Nissan management may be that the target market for EV's is limited to those who are willing (and can afford) to make a bad financial decision to save the Earth. Ironically, if you're a proponent of EV's, it might have been better to respond indicating that you don't give a crap about the environment.

 

[Yanquetino]

What I find most ironic is that Nissan would conduct a thorough survey to ascertain how to best "please us customers" when it comes to battery warranty, but not even bother to ask our opinions about VSP. Ouch: bite my tongue.