July 16 Survey Email

[LTLFTcomposite]

One complaint I've heard from hybrid owners is that when battery replacement time rolls around you give back everything you saved on gas and then some. So you wind up saving gas, but you don't save any money.

Whether Nissan is paying for the replacement battery (and rolling the cost into the warranty projections priced into the car) or the customer gets stuck with the tab, lower battery costs are key to EV success.

The typical driver would put about a grand a year into the tank of a Versa. The same usage in a Leaf would use around $400 a year worth of electricity. Spending an extra 10 grand, not to mention another 7 grand compliments of the US taxpayer, takes nearly 17 years to make back even if the battery lasted forever. If you're looking at nearly 10 thousand in battery replacement costs after 5 years this is starting to look pretty ugly.

Of course at $10 a gallon the picture changes, and also if the battery replacement is only $3k. I'm not suggesting the technology isn't worth pursuing, it absolutely is as a human endeavor, but cost effective transportation? Let's just say you'd be crazy to pay over sticker, cause these things are going to be stacked up on the lot in a few months at current course and speed.

 

[Gavin]

Just filled out one on my surveys...it was quite interesting...I could see the wheels turning in nissan's head with each question....

I told them miles didn't matter as much as years...it is a commuter car...you won't see many people with 20k plus a year


So 8 yrs and 80k miles vs 8 yrs and 100k miles is really the same thing

For me 8 yrs is key to buying..any less is a lease...

I would gladly go 8 yrs standard and pay 250-500 more for 10 yrs

Gavin

 

[Yanquetino]

My perspective is that it is actually a moot point. We already know that Nissan is developing a lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cathode battery, with even better range, and my bet is that it will be available by 2015. If so, as I told Nissan in the survey multiple times, I will likely upgrade my pack --whether or not it is still under warranty.

 

[Nubo]

I didn't receive the battery survey, but did it indicate what conditions would be covered by the battery warranty? For example, how will one know if their battery isn't performing within specification? Range would not be a good test because of so many other variables that affect range. For example, "I could go from my home to my work and back (50 miles RT) when I bought the Leaf, and now 2 years later I can't make it back home" Is the battery performing to specification?

I'm sure that the warranty doesn't only cover complete battery failure so there should be some way of knowing whether the battery is performing as it should, with some allowance for a small amount of detoriation over time....

One way would be to run the heater at a set rate and let the computer keep tabs on the state of charge. I would expect such a diagnostic to be available.

 

[Nubo]

Personally I think 5 years is a reasonable time at this stage of the game as long as it's a guaranteed 75% capacity by the end of the period, based on what I've read about the technology. I don't expect to be putting more than 60,000 on the car in that timeframe. At the end of 5 years I am hoping the tech has improved and a better battery will be available. I'd rather replace with a 150 or 200 mile pack than with another 100 mile pack under an extended warranty.

 

[AndyH]

Yes, we need a lot more information before real monitary decisions can be made.

Right, how does one find out that one or two cells (or modules with 4 cells each) are getting "weak" and are limiting the battery pack's performance?

Will the on-board BMS tell or warn us?

Even if there's been Zero improvement in BMS technology since the 1997 Ford Ranger, the BMS will absolutely be able to tell not only that a specific cell is not up to spec, but much more detail as well.

Drop in the reference docs folder and scan the diagnostic trouble code section in the Ranger shop manual. There's a full range of info available do exactly as you ask.

 

[AndyH]

I didn't get a survey.

But... NiMh EVs have run out beyond 100,000 miles on the original pack. The current tech LiFePO4 and LiMn are better than the old NiMh. Nissan/AESC reports more than 100,000 miles of battery service in a number of test vehicles.

How many folks that DID get the survey think it's about the battery, and how many think it's about Nissan wanting to find out what people THINK about the battery?

Andy

 

[mwalsh]

Just finished my survey. Of course, I hinted heavily that an 8 year/100k (or better) warranty would be completely awesome!

 

[evnow]

So the survey is only for early rollout states ?

I didn't screen capture the survey - it was like 10 pages.

 

[efusco]

So the survey is only for early rollout states ?

I didn't screen capture the survey - it was like 10 pages.

No, I got one and I'm in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Gavin]

nope...I got two emails...so one for my Phoenix res, but also one for my New Mexico res...and NM is very much not an early roll out state...sadly

Gavin

 

[evnow]

I didn't get a survey.

Since others are getting it
- check junk mail
- you opted out of being contacted at some point ?

 

[AndyH]

I didn't get a survey.

Since others are getting it
- check junk mail
- you opted out of being contacted at some point ?

No junk mail; my account profile says to keep me informed of everything Leaf.

Any possibility this was a survey type distribution rather than an 'all hands' message?

 

[Nubo]

I didn't get a survey.

But... NiMh EVs have run out beyond 100,000 miles on the original pack. The current tech LiFePO4 and LiMn are better than the old NiMh. Nissan/AESC reports more than 100,000 miles of battery service in a number of test vehicles.

How many folks that DID get the survey think it's about the battery, and how many think it's about Nissan wanting to find out what people THINK about the battery?

Andy

Well I never got the June30 letter, but I got this one.

I'm not sure what to make of it. I can understand the choice between a 5 year standard warranty and an 8-year extended warranty. But not sure why there were so many other possibilites thrown out there. Warranty the battery for how long you think it's going to reasonably last -- that's an actuarial exercise, not an opinion-driven one. I can understand asking about desire for extended warranties, but not all of the other options

 

[Kataphn]

I got the survey here in Los Angeles, CA. I used the free text spaces to not only answer their question of "why" to each of my answers but to also give my 2 cents on their "image" which they did ask about in separate questions as well. I think they are already late to the game by allowing themselves to be trumped by the Volt announcement. They need to make up ground at this point. Even among early adopters, there are people like me who would like the assurance of a longer warranty in order to buy this new product with confidence. The MSRP is a big chunk of change for our household. If they are hesitant to give the longer warrany (8-10 years), it does not say much about their confidence in their product. I wonder if it will be like getting a new tire when an old one is under warranty...where you get credit towards a new tire based on mileage already on old tire. How much of decreased battery capacity will they chalk up to "wear and tear" or "normal usage"? When does the warranty get triggered? Many questions. It was not clear to me whether they could identify the responders to the survey by individual name or whether we were being aggregated. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Taka]

Did the survey. One Big thing missing is how much a replacement battery would be????

 

[kballs]

The survey didn't ask anything about any of these issues.

I don't see how a survey could have addressed battery cost issue in 5 years.

I'm not saying they could address it with high accuracy, I'm saying they have to address this head-on with hypothetical numbers of cost, just like their hypothetical numbers of years/miles warranty. If not, the survey will just be gauging how many people plan to keep the car more than 5 years, or what the warranty period should be to quell a wide range of fear based on a wide range of speculation on life and replacement cost.

 

[evnow]

I'm saying they have to address this head-on with hypothetical numbers of cost, just like their hypothetical numbers of years/miles warranty.

Replacement cost may not be announced for years. They are trying to find out what the expectations are ... given what is known publicly.

 

[Boomer23]

Got the survey. I'm definitely leasing for no more than 3 years, so I said I'd be ok with a 5 year/60k warranty, BUT I used the free text sections to tell them that they need to match Volt's warranty so that both the Leaf and BEVs appear to be viable options to the future car buyers. IMHO offering a shorter warranty than the Volt's, with or without an extended warranty option is a bad business decision as they launch the first mass market BEV.

Also, I wasn't happy about the first option of range degradation after one year being a 5% loss of range. I was thinking 2% after one year might be reasonable. While I only expect to lease for 3 years because I expect there to be several good choices by 2014, the announced range figures for the Leaf are already limiting for some of the trips I had anticipated being able to make, and losing 5% a year isn't encouraging.

 

[planet4ever]

I hope I didn't bias the results too much for all you 8-year folk. I am of the opinion that I want nothing to do with today's generation of batteries after 2015, and I made that clear through my answers. In fact I've decided I'm going to lease, and turn my Gen 1 Leaf in on something better in three years -- hopefully early in 2014. So I even told them a 3 year/36K lease would be OK with me!