Nissan's Included L1 (120v) EVSE

[garygid]

For a L1 extension cord, if needed occasionally, get a 25-foot
(or other suitable length) of outdoor, heavy duty (12 gauge wire),
suitable for at least 12 amps, better would be rated for 15 amps.
High visibility color would probably be best, for safety.

No, NOT the 10-amp rated cord, since the car uses 12 amps.

 

[Ingineer]

Here's my cheesy solution:

Take a small narrow piece of lumber and hammer a large brad every 11". The EVSE fits perfectly on these nails, and you can then adjust the height.

The stick is cut to fit perfectly in my car behind the "shade" for the rear trunk area.

-Phil

 

[DarkStar]

The Stick is cut to fit perfectly in my car behind the "shade" for the rear trunk area.

I hope it isn't long before The Stick is available to order from EVSEUpgrade.com!

 

[asinclair]

I have to say that "The Stick" seems to be the best solution so far that won't void the warranty!

And I meant to say 10-gauge extension cord, not 10-amp...thanks for catching that error!

 

[Ingineer]

I hope it isn't long before The Stick is available to order from

I had originally considered this, but shipping is problematic. Instead how about a kit with a printed template, and the nails needed for $5. The deluxe kit is $10 and includes a packet of seeds to grow your own hardwood.

 

[GeekEV]

The deluxe kit is $10 and includes a packet of seeds to grow your own hardwood.

Talk about a LOOOONG delivery time. I don't think too many people will be happy with that offering... :lol:

 

[Ingineer]

The deluxe kit is $10 and includes a packet of seeds to grow your own hardwood.

Talk about a LOOOONG delivery time. I don't think too many people will be happy with that offering... :lol:

No, it's simple; You just plant the seed when you make your reservation, and you'll have a 60' redwood by the time you get your car!

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Has anyone considered hard wiring an extra L1 charger to a 20 AMP line? I might do this at some point as I like the idea of using the L1 primarily since it charges longer and cooler for the batteries and I want to charge to 100% with less stress/heat on the batteries.

I have not felt much heat around the plug with the L1 charging, but I have melted almost to the point of fire, a space heater from a corroded old receptacle. The issue with plugs (the receptacle side in particular), as I understand, is that they can carbonize inside over time without being noticed, particularly old outlets, causing the resistance so build. I can imagine that Nissan is a bit leery of recommending non-hard wired charging on a regular basis since we are talking a good bit of continuous current and potential for heat build up and potential fire at the plug if the connection gets carbonized over time.

g

 

[EVDRIVER]

Has anyone considered hard wiring an extra L1 charger to a 20 AMP line? I might do this at some point as I like the idea of using the L1 primarily since it charges longer and cooler for the batteries and I want to charge to 100% with less stress/heat on the batteries.

I have not felt much heat around the plug with the L1 charging, but I have melted almost to the point of fire, a space heater from a corroded old receptacle. The issue with plugs (the receptacle side in particular), as I understand, is that they can carbonize inside over time without being noticed, particularly old outlets, causing the resistance so build. I can imagine that Nissan is a bit leery of recommending non-hard wired charging on a regular basis since we are talking a good bit of continuous current and potential for heat build up and potential fire at the plug if the connection gets carbonized over time.

g

Charging at L1 is not going to extend the length of your pack, the L2 LEAF charger is very low power compared to most chargers. I don't see any reason to hard wire the LEAF EVSE, there is no benefit.

 

[davewill]

I have not felt much heat around the plug with the L1 charging, but I have melted almost to the point of fire, a space heater from a corroded old receptacle.

I'd think it would be better to replace the receptacle you're using if it's old and corroded...or even questionable. I wouldn't bother hard-wiring.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Charging at L1 is not going to extend the length of your pack, the L2 LEAF charger is very low power compared to most chargers. I don't see any reason to hard wire the LEAF EVSE, there is no benefit.

It seems that there are a fair number of folks who buy into the "only charge to 80% if you can" club. So when I got a call from a rep last week about how I was liking my car, I asked them details about this. They apparently went to someone who actually new some stuff about why 80% is recommended and got back to me some days later. The person claimed the main reason to avoid the last 20 percent of the charge is because bringing the car up to that level creates substantially more heat than charging the first 80%, which might degrade the battery more over time, thus especially avoiding the last 20% with L3.

I'm extrapolating a bit from there, but assuming it's to be avoided especially on L3, then there might be reason to use L1 when going to 100% as it makes sense that there is more time to dissipate the heat during that last 20% charge. I do realize the Amp difference between L1 and L2 is nominal compared to L2 vs L3.

Since I"m planning on charging to 100% much of the time, I'm thinking it will be better to go slower and cooler. Since I'm currently considering using L1 mostly, it makes me think having it hard wired would be safer than relying on the contacts in the plug. Maybe I'm over thinking this, but after hearing all the bitching and moaning about range and reading about concerns with extension chords, I'm thinking I'd rather be safe than sorry.

It was confirmed to me that the main reason L2 is recommended over L1 is due to convenience.

I'm still waiting to hear if I qualify for the EV project free L2 charger, that could change my leanings quite a bit. :mrgreen:

G

 

[Ingineer]

Buy a new spec-grade outlet rated at 20a, and you will not have any trouble. Hard wiring is in violation of the electrical code without a local disconnect, and the EVSE is not meant to be hard wired.

A good quality outlet will have less resistance than the contacts in the EVSE's relays.

I recommend you get the EVSE upgraded to 240v 12A, and charge at that level as a compromise. I think it's silly to consider 120v 12a charging as your only method.

Keep in mind, charging at 120v is significantly less efficient, and you will be spending more on power.

-Phil

 

[TomT]

Since the L2 mode vehicle charger already tapers the charging rate as the battery approaches full capacity, I'm not sure that would make much of a real difference in the amount of heat generated. I've noticed on my Leaf, that the battery is at 5 bars of temperature when I first plug it in and still at 5 bars right after the completion of a 100 percent L2 charge. Granted, the temperature bars are quite coarse but it still does not appear that there is much temperature build up to 100 percent.

I'm extrapolating a bit from there, but assuming it's to be avoided especially on L3, then there might be reason to use L1 when going to 100% as it makes sense that there is more time to dissipate the heat during that last 20% charge. I do realize the Amp difference between L1 and L2 is nominal compared to L2 vs L3.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Thanks for your input guys.

G

 

[wwhitney]

Hard wiring is in violation of the electrical code without a local disconnect

NEC 625.23 only requires a local disconnect for EVSE of over 60 amps or over 120V to ground.

Keep in mind, charging at 120v is significantly less efficient, and you will be spending more on power.

Are you just referring to the I^2 * R losses, or is there something else going on?

Thanks, Wayne

 

[Ingineer]

NEC 625.23 only requires a local disconnect for EVSE of over 60 amps or over 120V to ground.

I didn't know about the 60a EVSE requirement, I thought all of them had to either be plug-disconnect or have a local switch or stop button. Since the Panasonic doesn't have a stop button, it normally qualifies because of it's plug which would be gone if someone were to hard-wire it.

Are you just referring to the I^2 * R losses, or is there something else going on?

There is fixed overhead in the LEAF to power up the ECU's, the coolant pump, and the main contactor. I don't have an exact figure, but it's somewhere north of 100 watts. Most EVSE's also have a fixed overhead when in charge mode, with mine being the smallest I have seen at around 6 watts on 120v.

The I2R losses in the battery and elsewhere are small compared to this, so you lose overall efficiency at lower rates. I'm sure there is a breakover point, but I don't think we'll ever see it at only 3.3kW output.

I plan on performing a detailed analysis soon on this.

-Phil

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

NEC 625.23 only requires a local disconnect for EVSE of over 60 amps or over 120V to ground.

I didn't know about the 60a EVSE requirement, I thought all of them had to either be plug-disconnect or have a local switch or stop button. Since the Panasonic doesn't have a stop button, it normally qualifies because of it's plug which would be gone if someone were to hard-wire it.

Are you just referring to the I^2 * R losses, or is there something else going on?

There is fixed overhead in the LEAF to power up the ECU's, the coolant pump, and the main contactor. I don't have an exact figure, but it's somewhere north of 100 watts. Most EVSE's also have a fixed overhead when in charge mode, with mine being the smallest I have seen at around 6 watts on 120v.

The I2R losses in the battery and elsewhere are small compared to this, so you lose overall efficiency at lower rates. I'm sure there is a breakover point, but I don't think we'll ever see it at only 3.3kW output.

I plan on performing a detailed analysis soon on this.

-Phil

Phil, thanks for bringing this up. In short, having the car charging requires a set minimum amount of energy regardless of rate of charge... that makes perfect sense to me and is worth considering. determining the breaking point for me would require putting hard numbers on some squishy things. I can hard wire the L1 on an existing circuit in my garage and even cap the other outlets on that circuit, no ripping out sheet rock, no new additions to the breaker box, I can even have an electricition do it for peace of mind for minimal cost and it's easy to uninstall if I move. From an investment point of view, if I qualify for the L2, it's not bigy, I can walk away in two years with no loss. If I have to pay to have it installed, I risk loosing the aprox 2K when/if I move... which is seeming more likely within the next two years or so. Having a hundred wats going up in smoke for an extra/net extra hours a day of L1 vs L2 charging could add up and in general just seems a bit wasteful, I agree, going against my tendency to invest in LED lighting to save energy. If there is any appreciable benefit to battery life, that's hard to put numbers on until we see how it goes. However, car companies seem remarkably good at finding ways out of warranties and that battery pack I'm told could set a person back around 18K... slow charging may or may not help any case that develops with the manufacturer should there be a substantial drop in range because of defect, who knows. I imagine over the long haul there will be some folks who never install the L2 for mobilities sake and because their average commute is low enough that topping off with the L1 is sufficient... eventually we'll have the millions of user hours to compare all this and see.

looking forward to any real world detailed analysis of any of this you and others come up with,
George

 

[Ingineer]

Phil, thanks for bringing this up. In short, having the car charging requires a set minimum amount of energy regardless of rate of charge... that makes perfect sense to me and is worth considering. determining the breaking point for me would require putting hard numbers on some squishy things. I can hard wire the L1 on an existing circuit in my garage and even cap the other outlets on that circuit, no ripping out sheet rock, no new additions to the breaker box, I can even have an electricition do it for peace of mind for minimal cost and it's easy to uninstall if I move. From an investment point of view, if I qualify for the L2, it's not bigy, I can walk away in two years with no loss. If I have to pay to have it installed, I risk loosing the aprox 2K when/if I move... which is seeming more likely within the next two years or so. Having a hundred wats going up in smoke for an extra/net extra hours a day of L1 vs L2 charging could add up and in general just seems a bit wasteful, I agree, going against my tendency to invest in LED lighting to save energy. If there is any appreciable benefit to battery life, that's hard to put numbers on until we see how it goes. However, car companies seem remarkably good at finding ways out of warranties and that battery pack I'm told could set a person back around 18K... slow charging may or may not help any case that develops with the manufacturer should there be a substantial drop in range because of defect, who knows. I imagine over the long haul there will be some folks who never install the L2 for mobilities sake and because their average commute is low enough that topping off with the L1 is sufficient... eventually we'll have the millions of user hours to compare all this and see.

looking forward to any real world detailed analysis of any of this you and others come up with,
George

You can send in your L1 to me for the revision 1 upgrade for $239, and then have an electrician install a L6-20 with a 20a circuit. That should cost under $200 if your breaker panel is close by.

Then you can charge "in the middle" at 12a which still gives you reasonable overnight charges, without being as slow as 120v, or as hard as the full 16a rate. I am also coming out with a revision 2 upgrade which will allow full level 2 with possibly user selectable rates. You can also still charge at 120v anytime you like.

If you move, you take the EVSE with you, you are only out the $200 for the outlet. That will probably have paid for itself in power savings by then!

-Phil

 

[ebill3]

It seems that there are a fair number of folks who buy into the "only charge to 80% if you can" club. So when I got a call from a rep last week about how I was liking my car, I asked them details about this. They apparently went to someone who actually new some stuff about why 80% is recommended and got back to me some days later. The person claimed the main reason to avoid the last 20 percent of the charge is because bringing the car up to that level creates substantially more heat than charging the first 80%, which might degrade the battery more over time, thus especially avoiding the last 20% with L3.

While heat may be a factor, I believe the overriding consideration is that charging Li-Ion to 100% seriously shortens cycle life. Also degrading is maintaining Li-Ion at full charge for extended periods.

A good reference is: http://powerelectronics.com/portabl...y_charger_ics/804PET22li-ion-battery-life.pdf

Note figure 3 which plots charge level to number of cycles.

Bill

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Bill, do you know if Nissan allows you to access 100% of the batteries actual upper limits? I talked to the Ford guy at the green fair here in Seattle and he said the Ford focus only allows access to 30% of it's actual battery capacity, making abuse impossible. I seriously doubt Nissan would be that different. I guess I buy the reasoning that it's hard to imagine Nissan allowing 100% of capacity to be accessed and then having to fork out $$$ to replace all those batteries under warranty. They don't say charging to 100% voids the warranty, which if the degradation was as serious as it would be for true 100% charging, that would be devastating to the company financially or result in a lot of very angry customers and bad press. I was assured that a substantial drop in battery capacity would be covered under warranty... time will tell.

I have a hard time believing we have access to anything near the top max on this battery but if someone has some actual data that shows what the actual capacity of the Leaf's battery is and that we are allowed to tap close to 100% of that, then that's a whole other story and please do tell.

For me for now, the inconvenience of loosing an extra few percents of battery life over time is nothing compared to the inconvenience of running close to empty regularly and having a lot of anxiety and possibly getting stranded. Getting stranded at all would be a serious buzz kill. I'm tending to not run the battery down below the 20 mile range, where the anxiety really kicks in for me, which makes it even more necessary to charge it all the way to have a decent range and relaxed experience with the vehicle. If it turns out that regularly charging the car to it's full capacity seriously reduces the batteries life, then I would be the first to argue the car should not be rated for a 100 mile range.

george