Official Tesla Model 3 thread

[evnow]

The reality of a $35,000 Model III:

• It will almost certainly not arrive in 2017.
• The car is entirely dependent on success of gigafactory (not just being built, but running at sufficient production to see battery prices fall).
• It won't have the capability to DC fast charge.
• It won't have 20kW charging capability.
• It will probably have competition.
• Hatchbacks > Sedans.

It will most definitely have
- capability to DC fast charge
- 20kW charging capability
All for an extra cost, ofcourse. Just like the 60 kWh model S now.

 

[dgpcolorado]

$30k Leaf with 150 mile EPA range will still have CHAdeMO - which you would need to use 1/2 the times as you would do now to do that 150 mile trip (which a lot of folks do with the current Leaf).

As I noted, Nissan will price 150 mile range atleast $5k lower than Model III - but Infiniti will probably be priced the same (perhaps with a little bit more range ?).

I'd find it difficult to pick between Infiniti & Model III. If they have the same range - but Infiniti can use CHAdeMO that is everywhere (but less reliable) compared to superchargers that are in far fewer places but are more reliable.

Perhaps CHAdeMO is everywhere in your area. Here it is nowhere and not remotely a realistic option. CHAdeMO is also not useful for long distance travel (too slow, too unreliable as currently deployed). So, if you are looking for an extended range local car I can see how a 150 mile LEAF with CHAdeMO might be useful. If you are looking for a single BEV to cover local and long distance trips, Supercharger is the only option for the foreseeable future. For me that has considerable value. A CHAdeMO car has no (additional) value for me. None. Perhaps that could change if the stations became ubiquitous, although that seems unlikely in this decade.

Still remains to be seen if the Model III will actually hit or come close to the targeted price and performance levels and if Tesla will continue to be a viable company. Neither is certain yet.

 

[jlv]

CHAdeMO or Supercharger.... neither looks good to me. Even if they were everywhere 100 miles apart, they lack the one thing I would want before making a long distance trip: fast refueling. I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes. 20 minutes to 80% charge is just not attractive for a long trip. Time == Money. My time is more important.

Several times a year we make a trip of 400+ miles (our family is spread all over the east coast from MA down to NC). Even if I splurged and bought a Model S, I can't imagine my wife being happy the 3rd time we were sitting at a SuperCharger for half an hour plus.

Maybe there is a market for Tesla's promised (but undelivered) battery swapper (although I think the suggested price is too much). For me, I hold out hope for some future EV with a ultra quick refueling ability. For this, I hold out hope for a FCEV.

(edit: fixed brain fart of "20 miles to 80% charge")

 

[epirali]

...BTW, for all those saying 35k is after tax credit - Musk has specifically stated it will be before tax credit...

Yes, that's the way I heard it also. Whether Tesla can achieve that price target remains to be seen — I am skeptical.

IF they do that then I agree that it will kill the Leaf, as it is now, instantly.

 

[dhanson865]

CHAdeMO or Supercharger.... neither looks good to me. Even if they were everywhere 100 miles apart, they lack the one thing I would want before making a long distance trip: fast refueling. I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes. 20 miles to 80% charge is just not attractive for a long trip. Time == Money. My time is more important.

Several times a year we make a trip of 400+ miles (our family is spread all over the east coast from MA down to NC). Even if I splurged and bought a Model S, I can't imagine my wife being happy the 3rd time we were sitting at a SuperCharger for half an hour plus.

I'm not sure what you mean by "20 miles to 80% charge" the actual quote I think you mean is "20 minutes to 50% charge" which is a claim Tesla makes.

If time is money you just charge for 15 minutes and go. There is no reason to stay at the supercharger for 30 minutes if you want to leave at 15 since 15 minutes will get you 100 miles charge on a 120KW or 135KW supercharger. And I do expect the Model E to accept the 135KW charge rate.

The supercharging curve actually slows down the charge rate after the first 15 minutes (see here) so you are better off uplugging and going down the road instead of sitting around anyway. If you have to go 400 miles your ideal charge pattern is to charge to full at home or work when your car is parked for the night or most of the day and you aren't using the car.

0 minutes - full charge (because you aren't waiting on the charge at the destination or origin)

charge again at 10-50 miles remaining after driving 150 to 200 miles

15 minutes adds 100 miles (charge 1)

drive another 100 miles

15 minutes adds 100 miles (charge 2)

drive another 100 miles

15 minutes adds 100 miles (charge 3)

drive to destination

0 minutes to full (because you aren't waiting on the charge at the destination or origin)

yes a 400 mile trip requires 3 x 15 minute charge sessions vs a gas car that can fill up in one session. But you don't have to sit around for 30 minutes at any point in the trip.

If you choose a shorter trip or a car with a bigger battery to begin with the math is even better

Say you get 300 miles on a full charge instead of 200 and that cuts out one of those 15 minute charge sessions.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Time == Money. My time is more important...

For me driving on electrons, as opposed to fossil fuels, is more important.

Being retired, my time is my own. On long trips I just listen to audio books and chill in the right lane of the freeway anyway, so stopping for a charge would be no big deal. Ten or twelve hours on the road just evaporates with a good audio book IME.

 

[nosuchthing]

And it's not a bad idea to take a break after driving 100 miles anyway. What's the hurry, right? We'll get there one way or the other.

I used to speed commute, looking more into the rear-view mirror than forward, all frazzled. Are those headlights a cop car? Crown Victoria? And one day I realized I make it home about 5 minutes earlier going 72 than 65.

So I asked myself: Do I make 300 bucks in 5 minutes' time? No. Is 5 minutes' saved time worth the ticket/traffic court trouble? No. So I stopped. Now I'm relaxed, no looking for cops, no problems, no worries.

So, yeah. Time IS money. If it's spent right.

 

[apvbguy]

CHAdeMO or Supercharger.... neither looks good to me. Even if they were everywhere 100 miles apart, they lack the one thing I would want before making a long distance trip: fast refueling. I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes. 20 miles to 80% charge is just not attractive for a long trip. Time == Money. My time is more important.

Several times a year we make a trip of 400+ miles (our family is spread all over the east coast from MA down to NC). Even if I splurged and bought a Model S, I can't imagine my wife being happy the 3rd time we were sitting at a SuperCharger for half an hour plus.

Maybe there is a market for Tesla's promised (but undelivered) battery swapper (although I think the suggested price is too much). For me, I hold out hope for some future EV with a ultra quick refueling ability. For this, I hold out hope for a FCEV.

ok, so you have no interest in an EV, why are you here?

 

[apvbguy]

CHAdeMO or Supercharger.... neither looks good to me. Even if they were everywhere 100 miles apart, they lack the one thing I would want before making a long distance trip: fast refueling. I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes. 20 miles to 80% charge is just not attractive for a long trip. Time == Money. My time is more important.

Several times a year we make a trip of 400+ miles (our family is spread all over the east coast from MA down to NC). Even if I splurged and bought a Model S, I can't imagine my wife being happy the 3rd time we were sitting at a SuperCharger for half an hour plus.

I'm not sure what you mean by "20 miles to 80% charge" the actual quote I think you mean is "20 minutes to 50% charge" which is a claim Tesla makes.

+

on a trip a 20 minute or so supercharging will get you from SC to SC, say from a 25% level to an 80% level

 

[dhanson865]

CHAdeMO or Supercharger.... neither looks good to me. Even if they were everywhere 100 miles apart, they lack the one thing I would want before making a long distance trip: fast refueling. I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes. 20 miles to 80% charge is just not attractive for a long trip. Time == Money. My time is more important.

Several times a year we make a trip of 400+ miles (our family is spread all over the east coast from MA down to NC). Even if I splurged and bought a Model S, I can't imagine my wife being happy the 3rd time we were sitting at a SuperCharger for half an hour plus.

I'm not sure what you mean by "20 miles to 80% charge" the actual quote I think you mean is "20 minutes to 50% charge" which is a claim Tesla makes.

+

on a trip a 20 minute or so supercharging will get you from SC to SC, say from a 25% level to an 80% level

I can believe that 20 minutes will get you to the next supercharger but it won't get you to an 80% charge. I think he just messed up that quote in multiple ways.

 

[apvbguy]

from zero 20 minutes will not get you to 80%, from 20% it should, depending on the limits of the SC station

 

[evnow]

I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes.

If you are the type who will drive for 6 hours with 5 minute breaks- you are an edge case and EV's are not for you. Rest of us take 30 minute breaks ...

I just hope tax payer money is not spent to cover your niche needs.

 

[epirali]

I want to refuel and be on my way again in 5 minutes.

If you are the type who will drive for 6 hours with 5 minute breaks- you are an edge case and EV's are not for you. Rest of us take 30 minute breaks ...

I just hope tax payer money is not spent to cover your niche needs.

But we already have that, it's called gasoline!

 

[jlv]

My underlying point is this: EVs will be niche vehicles as long as it takes more than 5 minutes to "refuel".

Today they work great local around-the-town cars. E.g., for commuter cars, where you go from home to work and then work to home, and have long enough times on each end to recharge. In fact, I'm doing that with my Leaf loving every moment of the way. I love that I'm not pumping out toxic exhaust, the performance of the car, and that I'm paying for fossil fuels anymore.

IMHO, the need for 20-30 minute recharges for any decent range will be a major disincentive to eliminating ICE. As I said, I can't imagine every taking a 400 mile trip in a car that required me to take multiple breaks. Maybe I'm in the 'niche', but my niche includes nearly everyone I know. This is why I think there is a need for some form of fast-refueling EV, and that's what I hope to be able to buy for my next EV.

 

[jlv]

Given the feedback from these replies, I realize I'm just pissing into the wind here. I'll think I''ll bow out from further participation in such political discussions.

 

[epirali]

Given the feedback from these replies, I realize I'm just pissing into the wind here. I'll think I''ll bow out from further participation in such political discussions.

Not sure why you say that. I for one mostly agree with you. Except it's not a niche as most families have more than one car. For example an EV with 200 miles range meets 90% of my needs, and having a second ICE means for the few times I need more range I won't wait to recharge.

The Leaf is at the edge of usability, but EVs as a whole are very compelling. I think they just can't be the only car for most people.

 

[evnow]

My underlying point is this: EVs will be niche vehicles as long as it takes more than 5 minutes to "refuel".

I don't think refueling in 5 minutes is the main problem - it is the range + refueling time.

In other words - if you need to go 400 miles - and it takes you normally 6 hours - how long would it take in an EV. If you can get 200 miles of highway range and it takes 1/2 hour to refuel that would be 6 1/2 hours - which would be acceptable to most people - since most people travel with kids and you can't travel for 6 hours without a 30 minute break.

 

[pchilds]

400 miles at 70 mph = 5:43, with no breaks. Most people would need at least one bathroom break and a meal break in that time, plenty of time to fast charge.

 

[Clippy]

My underlying point is this: EVs will be niche vehicles as long as it takes more than 5 minutes to "refuel".

Today they work great local around-the-town cars. E.g., for commuter cars, where you go from home to work and then work to home, and have long enough times on each end to recharge. In fact, I'm doing that with my Leaf loving every moment of the way. I love that I'm not pumping out toxic exhaust, the performance of the car, and that I'm paying for fossil fuels anymore.

IMHO, the need for 20-30 minute recharges for any decent range will be a major disincentive to eliminating ICE. As I said, I can't imagine every taking a 400 mile trip in a car that required me to take multiple breaks. Maybe I'm in the 'niche', but my niche includes nearly everyone I know. This is why I think there is a need for some form of fast-refueling EV, and that's what I hope to be able to buy for my next EV.

I agree with you, and so does CARB (scary thought, huh?).

As I frequently tell anyone who's listening (and thinking), it's not how far the EV can go, it's what happens at the end of the charge that matters.

I too have to take frequent trips of >400 miles. Currently no EV does this in a fashion that neither I nor my family is agreeable with. On "my" frequent 650 mile trip, I stop once, shove burgers in the kids, coffee in the adults and gas in the tank and we're off in 30 minutes. Next stop is that checkered flag place on the GPS. I am quite comfortable with the current EV iteration, it's the perfect around town car. I can't even imaging driving an ICE car in these circumstances, save for the odd trip to get twenty or so 2X4's.

As far as trying to talk to "these people." Forget it. You won't make a dent. I bought one of the first Leaves made. When the thing's range started dropping almost immediately, I was told everything from "You're from BigOil, FauxNews, the Koch Brothers" (You Libs just slay me) or simply "You're driving it wrong." Add to the inherent fanaticism involved in the warped thinking that if you send some company a bunch of money you can still drive all over the place and consume resources and "Save the Planet," the inherent greed involved in the run-up of a certain companies stock and you're gonna lose every time.

I said Sayonara to the "EV Community" when they started grading your worth as a human being by not whether you were trying, but whether you were trying the "right" way. "My Leaf is better than your 'Compliance Car.'" "Oh, yeah, well I recharge MY car with Solar power." So I just drive my two EV's, tell anyone who asks that they're "Great!" for in-town use only and they've got some really sweet lease deals on them. Go check 'em out. And sometimes they do.

As for the rest of you, go measure your "Gids."

 

[apvbguy]

400 miles at 70 mph = 5:43, with no breaks. Most people would need at least one bathroom break and a meal break in that time, plenty of time to fast charge.

most ICE vehicles do not carry enough fuel to go 400 miles or do not get the MPG to get that far