SHENZHEN FACTORY TECHNOLOGY battery packs- is it real?

[noelho]

So either the estimate is wrong or they aren’t the batteries you think they are. Rewrraps are so prevalent in e-cigs that getting a. Supplier who can buy direct from the manufacturer is critical.

It looks like that is the current battery pricing, as there are several Verified CATL distributors on Alibaba, and all of the pricing is around there.

Looking at other brands, EVE are selling batteries around that price point on Alibaba. Their official Alibaba store:
https://evebatteryglobal.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.7735675.0.i87.55a1ZVAKZVAKHZ

 

[ZE0SV]

Those CATL NMC battery modules in the VIVNE videos are going for USD $60-70 per kWh on Alibaba.

You do want to have some skepticism when looking up “CATL” branded batteries. Mike made a good observation.
We’ll use Starmax as an example (a company even I’ve thought about purchasing from), has several listings, some say HY-CATL, some say CATL only, some say LiFePO4, but what they all have in common is that their battery manufacturer sheet say they are HY-TAFEL batteries, a competitor of CATL.
Take another one for example CALB another competitor of CATL who has recently lost a lawsuit for patent infringement. More flags are raised when you look more into it. They infringed on 5 patents, one of which is for “Explosion-Proof Device (CN205231128U)”
As stated in this article: https://www.wispro.com/en/catl-and-...nt-offenses-and-defense-war-tend-to-be-harsh/
I personally don’t know what a company like CALB could do to further cut corners on something like “Explosion-Proof Device” but I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that to find out.
Point is, a lot of the Chinese sales strategy is have lots of variety and see what sticks, just look at temu & shein. Alibaba is no saint in this strategy either. They primarily prey on people’s ignorance and that’s unethical no mater how ethical they want to convince you they are. Not speaking on every Chinese company. CATL clearly has done it right, proven multiple times. However, CATL is not a generic term for Chinese batteries but the uneducated public searches for them like they are. Then the sneaky distributors who receive random grade batteries from several manufacturers slap a CATL QR code and suddenly people believe they’re genuine CATL when they are not. That’s also to say that companies like Starmax (from my example earlier) who do in house spot welding, could be mixing manufacturers or worse, battery chemistries due to their lack of knowledge. EVE Batteries are 304Ah cells and CATL Batteries are 302Ah cells etc etc…
Too many variables to mess with.

 

[noelho]

You do want to have some skepticism when looking up “CATL” branded batteries. Mike made a good observation.
We’ll use Starmax as an example (a company even I’ve thought about purchasing from), has several listings, some say HY-CATL, some say CATL only, some say LiFePO4, but what they all have in common is that their battery manufacturer sheet say they are HY-TAFEL batteries, a competitor of CATL.
Take another one for example CALB another competitor of CATL who has recently lost a lawsuit for patent infringement. More flags are raised when you look more into it. They infringed on 5 patents, one of which is for “Explosion-Proof Device (CN205231128U)”
As stated in this article: https://www.wispro.com/en/catl-and-...nt-offenses-and-defense-war-tend-to-be-harsh/
I personally don’t know what a company like CALB could do to further cut corners on something like “Explosion-Proof Device” but I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that to find out.
Point is, a lot of the Chinese sales strategy is have lots of variety and see what sticks, just look at temu & shein. Alibaba is no saint in this strategy either. They primarily prey on people’s ignorance and that’s unethical no mater how ethical they want to convince you they are. Not speaking on every Chinese company. CATL clearly has done it right, proven multiple times. However, CATL is not a generic term for Chinese batteries but the uneducated public searches for them like they are. Then the sneaky distributors who receive random grade batteries from several manufacturers slap a CATL QR code and suddenly people believe they’re genuine CATL when they are not. That’s also to say that companies like Starmax (from my example earlier) who do in house spot welding, could be mixing manufacturers or worse, battery chemistries due to their lack of knowledge. EVE Batteries are 304Ah cells and CATL Batteries are 302Ah cells etc etc…
Too many variables to mess with.

Yes, we have to be skeptical but Alibaba has been around a long time and is mainly B to B wholesaler. Their "Verified" and "Trade Assurance" guarantees add a much higher level of confidence, despite all the weird inconsistent product listings.

On a separate note, I got this reply from Helen at VIVNE, regarding their BMS:
"Yes, we use the existing 24kWh BMS.

It is the original Nissan Leaf BMS we are using, so we don't manufacture it. The voltage and current remain unchanged, so the working environment of the BMS remains unchanged also the control logic and safety strategy remain unchanged.

What we had changed is only the capacity of the battery, so the dashboard can display the new whole mileages and can run further.

The re-programmed BMS is a very mature product, which had been repeatedly verified."

How they manage to get it to work with larger battery packs and where they source those BMS from, I have no clue.

EDIT: Speak of the devil, i got a reply from another VIVNE employee on their youtube video (why on earth they dont stick to their main youtube channel, is beyond me)

"1. We use original Nissan Leaf battery case, the source is second-hand dismantled parts.
2. Reprogramming BMS is the best solution, it can perfectly display the whole mileage and the actual mileage will be accurately displayed based on energy economy. For AZE0 will definitely not appear “turtle” during the whole process. If "turtle" appears, it means that it's out of power and just needs to be charged, you can also charge to 4.2V. But the CANbridge can't be charged to 100%, for AZE0 it will appear “turtle”when the power is about 30%.
3. 50kWh battery can fit into a 24kWh battery case for AZE0, no need to use the spacer and cut the battery case or drill any new holes. Any questions please contact me."

 

[MikeinPA]

Looking at the video:

• They show a foam container with bare cells
• The cells appear to have had blue film applied by hand. The black covering on the top is wrinkled and bubbled on about 20% of the cells.
• In appearance they are identical to these EVE cells, https://batteryfinds.com/product/catl-3-7v-180ah-lithium-ion-nmc-battery-cells/ or https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Starmax-High-Quality-Catl-3-7V_1600268585216.html
• No where is any thing with a CATL logo on it that I can see
• They appear to have assembled the cells into modules themselves, then covered them up with black plastic. This will require some aluminum welding technology... but anyway why not show what is under the black covers?
• The rubber gasket looks like a kid put it together from weather stripping
• At 1:30 you can see a high voltage cable resting on the sharp edge of an aluminum plate. Vibration plus time will wear away the cable insulation
• the bus bars between modules appear to be about 1/2 the thickness of the original copper bars

Seriously doubt these are Contemporary Amperex Technology automotive cells. What is the real cycle life for these blue cells? Who makes them? Safety testing?

I can't match the part number of the BMS shown, 293A0-4NC0... If it was manufactured in China for a Sylphy, it would make sense

 

[ZE0SV]

Yes, we have to be skeptical but Alibaba has been around a long time and is mainly B to B wholesaler. Their "Verified" and "Trade Assurance" guarantees add a much higher level of confidence, despite all the weird inconsistent product listings.

On a separate note, I got this reply from Helen at VIVNE, regarding their BMS:
"Yes, we use the existing 24kWh BMS.

It is the original Nissan Leaf BMS we are using, so we don't manufacture it. The voltage and current remain unchanged, so the working environment of the BMS remains unchanged also the control logic and safety strategy remain unchanged.

What we had changed is only the capacity of the battery, so the dashboard can display the new whole mileages and can run further.

The re-programmed BMS is a very mature product, which had been repeatedly verified."

How they manage to get it to work with larger battery packs and where they source those BMS from, I have no clue.

EDIT: Speak of the devil, i got a reply from another VIVNE employee on their youtube video (why on earth they dont stick to their main youtube channel, is beyond me)

"1. We use original Nissan Leaf battery case, the source is second-hand dismantled parts.
2. Reprogramming BMS is the best solution, it can perfectly display the whole mileage and the actual mileage will be accurately displayed based on energy economy. For AZE0 will definitely not appear “turtle” during the whole process. If "turtle" appears, it means that it's out of power and just needs to be charged, you can also charge to 4.2V. But the CANbridge can't be charged to 100%, for AZE0 it will appear “turtle”when the power is about 30%.
3. 50kWh battery can fit into a 24kWh battery case for AZE0, no need to use the spacer and cut the battery case or drill any new holes. Any questions please contact me."

At least we’re finding similarities within these. Simon appears to be having the same problem with turtle mode at 30% and ultimately needed a CAN bridge to correct the issue. This is for 2013 Leaf S 24kWh->53kWh, depends on when in the year he got it could be ZE0 or AZE0.

“So far, everything is fine physically. The only issue I have is related to the range meter not learning true capacity. For example, the meter will go down 40 miles when I only drove 10, and this is after full charge. Then with about 30-40% of battery remaining, the range meter will not change hardly at all and sometimes enter turtle mode.

This seems to be a somewhat common issue with battery swaps in general. I have been working with the supplier and they are testing out a new canbridge to help solve the issue. It has nothing to do with Dala's canbridge, I guess, which is what I am using now...not that I am knocking his brilliant work.”

 

[nlspace]

The blue wrap of the cells is only on the sides, but not the ends? Maybe they were still in processing but hard to believe anyone would leave exposed cell cases.

The case of a prismatic cell is "hot"--it is directly connected to the aluminum positive cathode. The negative current collectors connect to the copper anode which must be kept isolated from the case.

That pack looked like a prototype or conceptual model for display purposes?

 

[noelho]

• The cells appear to have had blue film applied by hand. The black covering on the top is wrinkled and bubbled on about 20% of the cells.
• In appearance they are identical to these EVE cells, https://batteryfinds.com/product/catl-3-7v-180ah-lithium-ion-nmc-battery-cells/ or https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Starmax-High-Quality-Catl-3-7V_1600268585216.html

Both those links are to CATL cells that look like the one in the VIVNE video.

This Starmax video actually mentions that the assembled modules were manufactured in 2020! 4 years they been sitting around! As opposed to the newer cells assembled in 2023

• No where is any thing with a CATL logo on it that I can see

From all the videos and listings ive seen, they only have the QR code to verify authenticity, and sometimes they have the name just above the QR code.

• They appear to have assembled the cells into modules themselves, then covered them up with black plastic. This will require some aluminum welding technology... but anyway why not show what is under the black covers?

Yeah, looks like VIVNE assemble the modules themselves, as opposed to the pre-assembled ones from CATL (like in the starmax video).

I havent seen any videos/photos of their modules assembled without the black cover. The closest thing would be this blog post on their site:
https://vivnevs.com/blog/detail/why-choose-vivnes-nissan-leaf-battery-upgrade-solutions

• The rubber gasket looks like a kid put it together from weather stripping

Yeah, the original pack is sealed with some kinda glue instead of a normal gasket:
https://www.summet.com/blog/2015/04/05/the-2013-nissan-leaf-lizard-battery-and-module-differences/

I assume that rubber gasket is something VIVNE put on or maybe the packs in China are different?

At least VIVNE add dual layers of glue to the pack after they finish their testing

• At 1:30 you can see a high voltage cable resting on the sharp edge of an aluminum plate. Vibration plus time will wear away the cable insulation

Good point. Should probably mention this to them. Either to deburr the plate or add some insulation/cover

 

[noelho]

Found a yaste.tech youtube channel. The guy uploaded a video of his US customer, manually assembling his pack, using a yaste.tech kit. The kit looks like it is using the CATL modules. There is a good shot of the QR code on top of the battery, but after scanning it, im not sure how im supposed to verifiy authenticity with that?!
"1ND*180Ah-1P4S*S3021011202003061713*20030600722*JiangSuLiYang*1J*0"
Couldnt scan the QR code on the side of the battery.



VIVNE also sell battery kits instead of the whole pack, and interestingly enough, they supply a CAN bridge in their battery kits.

 

[Riore]

Good point. Should probably mention this to them. Either to deburr the plate or add some insulation/cover

In some photos they route it down and under in others it's got a gap and some it's looks to be on the ridge.

https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPAW/UPAW334/2401/23/products/eb76c4f698.jpg
https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPAW/UPAW334/2407/13/products/d4aabbe980.jpg
https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPAW/UPAW334/2407/13/products/eec877d280.jpg

 

[noelho]

In some photos they route it down and under in others it's got a gap and some it's looks to be on the ridge.

https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPAW/UPAW334/2401/23/products/eb76c4f698.jpg
https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPAW/UPAW334/2407/13/products/d4aabbe980.jpg
https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPAW/UPAW334/2407/13/products/eec877d280.jpg

Nice!

Did you ask them to make video of your pack build? I assume they will provide all the certs for the batteries they used in your pack.

 

[MikeinPA]

Found a yaste.tech youtube channel. The guy uploaded a video of his US customer, manually assembling his pack, using a yaste.tech kit. The kit looks like it is using the CATL modules.

Please provide a link showing the "CATL modules" that you are comparing the YASTE kit to. The only CATL module pictures I can find show state of the art battery packs. They look absolutely nothing like the YASTE modules.

Can anyone show pictures or documentation that a) feature actual CATL products and or b) show actual manufacturers for any of the cells or modules discussed in the previous 5 pages?

For the record, using unknown quality/manufacturer lithium ion batteries for any purpose is reckless. Using them in vehicles is even more so.

edit The YASTE module charge and discharge curves don't make any sense for an automotive battery. https://yaste.tech/nissan-leaf-catl-4s1p/ Charge and discharge graphs are for 3 amp and 2 amp respectively. Speechless.

 

[noelho]

Please provide a link showing the "CATL modules" that you are comparing the YASTE kit to. The only CATL module pictures I can find show state of the art battery packs. They look absolutely nothing like the YASTE modules.

Im referring to all the CATL modules on Alibaba from Verified suppliers.

 

[Riore]

edit The YASTE module charge and discharge curves don't make any sense for an automotive battery. https://yaste.tech/nissan-leaf-catl-4s1p/ Charge and discharge graphs are for 3 amp and 2 amp respectively. Speechless.

https://yaste.tech/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/94fe3464-ab6d-476e-845c-7be24591bc96.jpg
On this image 6 amps is 1C so 3C would be 18 amps and 20C would be 120amps.
Graphs look fine to me, There's 96 Cells in a Leaf and this is only 4 Cells. Charging this module at 2amps would require charging 48amps to the pack.

 

[Bombastinator2]

The problem with hand fitted is high cost and low consistency. The early ones may actually have better build quality than the later ones as demand rises. Window gasket will keep out water like other kinds of gasket… if it’s set up right. This sort of thing is what influencers are good for. Testing weird stuff like this.

 

[noelho]

The problem with hand fitted is high cost and low consistency. The early ones may actually have better build quality than the later ones as demand rises.

Yeah, assuming that those old modules are assembled by robots, they will definitely have higher consistency and quality compared to hand assembled modules. I wonder if CATL stopped making those modules or if they never made them, but those modules are some industry standard and the manufacturers assembled them on their own, which explains why some modules have different cells in them? So many questions.

Also I cant find any way to purchase stuff directly from CATL. There doesnt appear to be any info on their website, and first few pages of google results are all third party sites.

Window gasket will keep out water like other kinds of gasket… if it’s set up right. This sort of thing is what influencers are good for. Testing weird stuff like this.

True

 

[Bombastinator2]

Yeah, assuming that those old modules are assembled by robots, they will definitely have higher consistency and quality compared to hand assembled modules. I wonder if CATL stopped making those modules or if they never made them, but those modules are some industry standard and the manufacturers assembled them on their own, which explains why some modules have different cells in them? So many questions.

Also I cant find any way to purchase stuff directly from CATL. They’ll have a minimum number they’ll ship and the number is usually 4 digits. There doesnt appear to be any info on their website, and first few pages of google results are all third party sites.


True

That’s the way battery companies work, generally. Theyre wholesalers. The trick is to find a middleman who is reputable and DOES get them from the company. The company will usually sell to you if you can buy in big enough lots and you have a tax code. Frequently the numbers I’ve seen have been a thousand. It aliexpress that does smaller numbers. That site is retail. Unfortunately anyone in China more or less can sell on Ali express, so you need to be very careful. Some just don’t do it. I like liion wholesale myself for ecig batteries. They’re a wholesaler that sells to vape shops but they will take small orders. I don’t know if they have those things or not. If they do it’s probably real though.

 

[noelho]

That’s the way battery companies work, generally. Theyre wholesalers. The trick is to find a middleman who is reputable and DOES get them from the company. The company will usually sell to you if you can buy in big enough lots and you have a tax code. Frequently the numbers I’ve seen have been a thousand. It aliexpress that does smaller numbers. That site is retail. Unfortunately anyone in China more or less can sell on Ali express, so you need to be very careful. Some just don’t do it. I like liion wholesale myself for ecig batteries. They’re a wholesaler that sells to vape shops but they will take small orders. I don’t know if they have those things or not. If they do it’s probably real though.

Yeah. I usually try to stick to AliExpress shops that have been verified and been around for years with high ratings. So far so good. I have had a pretty high success rate buying stuff from AliExpress =)

It looks like Alibaba takes things a step further with third party verifications and trade guarantees, etc. And it does look like they will sell in low quantities for high cost items

 

[Bombastinator2]

Yeah. I usually try to stick to AliExpress shops that have been verified and been around for years with high ratings. So far so good. I have had a pretty high success rate buying stuff from AliExpress =)

It looks like Alibaba takes things a step further with third party verifications and trade guarantees, etc. And it does look like they will sell in low quantities for high cost items

The number is going to go down for bigger things. Cars have pretty big packs. If you were making a battery out of cells like 18650s or 21700s or something, you might just hit the bingo number. Bingo for a battery pack might be as low as 1. Probably more like 5 though. It depends on the particular company. Even retail can have this issue if the part is small enough. I had to buy a package of 20 firewall grommets I only neeeded 1. It was under $5 though so I don’t mind having 19 others. I wonder if anyone wants any? They’re small enough to fit in a standard envelope. Haven’t arrived yet though. It’s highly aggravating.

 

[MikeinPA]

https://yaste.tech/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/94fe3464-ab6d-476e-845c-7be24591bc96.jpg
On this image 6 amps is 1C so 3C would be 18 amps and 20C would be 120amps.
Graphs look fine to me, There's 96 Cells in a Leaf and this is only 4 Cells. Charging this module at 2amps would require charging 48amps to the pack.

20C charge rate. OK. For a super capacitor maybe.

Charging this module at 2amps would require charging 48amps to the pack.

Since the cells and module are all in series, the amperage charge rate is the same for all.

 

[MikeinPA]

Im referring to all the CATL modules on Alibaba from Verified suppliers.

But there are NO Contemporary Amperex Technology cells. If not, show me one please.

So, for example, if I was looking for Toshiba LTO modules, I can easily find the manufacturer's product information, like this https://www.global.toshiba/ww/products-solutions/battery/scib/product/module/2p12s.html and it says Toshiba all over the product. So when I have the product in my hand, or see a picture of it, I can directly compare it to the online information.

Or Sony VCT5 18650 cells -- I can directly find the manufacturer's information https://www.murata.com/en-us/products/batteries/cylindrical and there is a picture of the cell--and it matches the cells you can buy on line. and so on. Just point to any information showing any of these cells or modules are Contemporary Amperex Technology automotive cells.

Otherwise, I have to conclude that this is dangerous in the extreme. Placing unknown cells into an automobile, where they may be charged at over 100 amps, and discharged at 2 or 3 times that, is just setting the stage for a fire. What about the people in this car--suppose they are driving down a freeway at speed and the battery starts burning and venting. Oh, thats right, the correct sealant is no longer present at the battery seal, and can't provide venting as its supposed to.