Riore
Member
The battery has been built, it's currently in line for testing before being shipped. Takes 12 Days to ship via sea apparently but every other package I've had from China via sea transport has been 2 to 3 months.
SHENZHEN FACTORY TECHNOLOGY battery packs- is it real?
- Thread starter Astral
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The battery has been built, it's currently in line for testing before being shipped. Takes 12 Days to ship via sea apparently but every other package I've had from China via sea transport has been 2 to 3 months.
Bombastinator2
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Just posted because I saw a thing on CATL and was told it was vaporware and will probably be for a year or so. Something is going to happen though…
For anyone’s curiosity. I asked the question on one of their videos. For the ZE0 battery packs they use the ZE0 BMS.
From my speculation, reprogramming will force the new capacity but won’t be able to balance as efficiently at best, or simply won’t “know” it has more capacity to use.
I know in their video they “tested” the pack. It’s a very cookie cutter video with lots of edits.
For someone doing a 62kWh swap with a ZE0 BMS, does not sound good for the long term.
I’m sure someone can chime in with more specifics
I personally would feel better/safer buying a 62kWh battery pack and CAN bridge, instead of trying to brute force more capacity on a ZE0 BMS.
From my speculation, reprogramming will force the new capacity but won’t be able to balance as efficiently at best, or simply won’t “know” it has more capacity to use.
I know in their video they “tested” the pack. It’s a very cookie cutter video with lots of edits.
For someone doing a 62kWh swap with a ZE0 BMS, does not sound good for the long term.
I’m sure someone can chime in with more specifics
I personally would feel better/safer buying a 62kWh battery pack and CAN bridge, instead of trying to brute force more capacity on a ZE0 BMS.
Tracysyniz
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In fact, CANbridge is not suitable for 62kWh battery, the reprogramming BMS is the best solution, it's safety strategy of the original Nissan has not changed, so it is safe
I dont understand. Can you provide more details and explanation?
MikeinPA
Well-known member
BMS reprogramming! Sounds great--but no examples yet.
What we need to see is the BMS, the reprogramming cable, the device doing it, a screen shot, and before and after LS screenshots.
It has been put into practice. The early days of 3rd party battery swaps the cells would be swapped for NCM cells. That’s the post I was referencing earlier in this thread. Mux addresses this very situation and how it’s not recommended. Sure, you can brute force the capacity by flashing the BMS to recognize it. But I’ll quote why this isn’t “the best solution”:
“What I am concerned about with these packs, and really anybody putting a 24kWh BMS onto NMC cells, is the super-weak balancing and inherently inaccurate balancing algorithm on that BMS. It's a really outdated BMS that can't really cope with these cells. This leads to some kinda nasty issues in the medium to long term
it's an issue of the BMS not being able to keep up with the amount of charge mismatch in the cells. That happens both when fast charging and just using the car a lot. So you can still run into the same issue if you, say, drive the car a lot during the day and charge overnight. Exactly when this can happen depends on the amount of mismatch in the cells and the number of cycles you make.”
I understand this thread is referring to a 53kWh battery swap, but the implementation is the same. Overall, these batteries are a different chemistry and have different capacity curves.
What I’m wondering, is if this is limited due to hardware or software?
At that point, if software is the only obstacle, then yes, a complete flash of the BMS would be a viable solution. If the Sylphy BMS is programmed with the same language as the Leaf BMS, I do believe they would have the resources necessary to get this all correct.
“What I am concerned about with these packs, and really anybody putting a 24kWh BMS onto NMC cells, is the super-weak balancing and inherently inaccurate balancing algorithm on that BMS. It's a really outdated BMS that can't really cope with these cells. This leads to some kinda nasty issues in the medium to long term
it's an issue of the BMS not being able to keep up with the amount of charge mismatch in the cells. That happens both when fast charging and just using the car a lot. So you can still run into the same issue if you, say, drive the car a lot during the day and charge overnight. Exactly when this can happen depends on the amount of mismatch in the cells and the number of cycles you make.”
I understand this thread is referring to a 53kWh battery swap, but the implementation is the same. Overall, these batteries are a different chemistry and have different capacity curves.
What I’m wondering, is if this is limited due to hardware or software?
At that point, if software is the only obstacle, then yes, a complete flash of the BMS would be a viable solution. If the Sylphy BMS is programmed with the same language as the Leaf BMS, I do believe they would have the resources necessary to get this all correct.
MikeinPA
Well-known member
I don't. Elsewhere on the intertubes people have identified the MCU and from there it is easy to find the software and tools . I just won't believe the folks putting blue cells into used battery enclosures are also super qualified electrical engineers without real proof. Like a before and after LS screen grab of the same BMS before and after "flashing". And a picture of the tools needed to do it next to the VIVNES lift.
Can you put 50 kwh of cells into a battery with a 24 kwh BMS and get full use of the new capacity? Show me some proof.
Can you put 24 kwh of new cells into a Leaf with a 24 kwh BMS? Yes. Is it safe? Will it work? If the cells stay in balance, yes. Ditto for other Leaf versions. Can you take a 60 kwh leaf battery, replace the cells, and put it into a 2014 Leaf while including a CAN bridge? Yes. Ditto for other variations. Does any of this require "flashing" the BMS? No. Could you place the CAN bridge inside the battery enclosure? Yes.
I very much hope people realize how risky it is to spend money on a solution like this coming out of a garage somewhere in Asia. People make claims...we need real proof that these people are doing what they claim. it's not just the money, there are very real safety issues.
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I agree with this 100% safety is #1 priority in all of this.
I was referring to using the original ZE0 BMS with 62kWh batteries with no CAN Bridge like they’re claiming by simply reprogramming the BMS.
There are real risks in this, and I’m glad we can have an open discussion about it, for anyone even remotely considering an overseas pack.
Bombastinator2
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So to sum this up, “it IS at least partially B.S for sure and it could be a REAL BAD IDEA to take any action based on it…. Move along move along”
I don't see any relevance in the location of the garage. What does it matter if it is in Asia?
This is the only thing that matters. If they can provide proof and evidence of their claims.
MikeinPA
Well-known member
Lithium ion battery products should come out of ISO conforming facilities , or at least explicitly meet required safety standards for the country where the product is being used. But an anonymous garage located who knows where?
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My point still stands. What does it matter if it's a garage in Asia, or a garage in Europe, or a garage in USA or a garage in NZ? Scammers exist, regardless of location.
All that matters is they prove their competence and their product.
Riore has already taken the plunge, so I'll hold off any judgement and speculation and wait to hear from their experience.
MikeinPA
Well-known member
Its literally a "garage somewhere in Asia"! Where all of these CATL miracle cures are coming from. At 100$/kwh no less--that alone should warn people away.
Why? Costs in China are much lower compared with the rest of the world.
A brand new BYD Atto3 in NZ costs nearly USD31,800, but only costs USD16,650 in China.
Fyi, battery costs are falling fast, https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleant...attery-prices-by-50-in-2024-boom-evs-win/amp/
Tony 240
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I know this is a little off the topic but has anyone seen this about carbon fiber batteries where the frame workn of the car could be the battery https://interestingengineering.com/energy/weightless-carbon-fiber-batteries
MikeinPA
Well-known member
That is just a trifle disingenuous, I think. NMC manufacturing costs are lower in China, but still barely below 100$/kwh (look it up). Then the manufacturer would need to sell these automotive modules outside of their normal distribution. Call it $150 to $200 for new grade A CATL modules inside China. Then VIVNE has to take these as a raw material input, put all of the labor into making the metal boxes, harnesses, assembly, testing, flashing BMSs, packing, advertising, overhead, etc--then make a little profit.
BYD is heavily subsidized. https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/ And still I would estimate the 60 kwh battery pack at 80$/kwh to manufacture and this is the much cheaper LFP type.
Edit: BYD & CATL LFP cells right now are 60$/kwh to car manufactures, NMC will be more. This volume sales under long term contracts. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/26/catl-byd-to-slash-battery-prices-by-50-in-2024-boom-evs-win/
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GentleGiant
Active member
Having lived in China - life is cheap, and screwing over customers is standard business operating procedure.
Do you remember what happened to Renault with the Twizzy launch??
Or just this last week, using contaminated tankers partly filled with toxic chemicals to then transport cooking oils - apparently also something that has become standard practice in the Chinese transport industry over the last couple of years - until it was exposed last week.
Bombastinator2
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Was in th US too. Until we created the FDA. Googling “poison squad” yeids interesting historical stuff if you’re into that. Formaldehyde used to be a standard ingredient in milk. China is in some ways a lot like the US in the 1890’s. There’s another one though: shipping costs
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