SHENZHEN FACTORY TECHNOLOGY battery packs- is it real?

[noelho]

Show me one please.

You can find them on Alibaba for yourself.

 

[cornbinder89]

You do want to have some skepticism when looking up “CATL” branded batteries. Mike made a good observation.
We’ll use Starmax as an example (a company even I’ve thought about purchasing from), has several listings, some say HY-CATL, some say CATL only, some say LiFePO4, but what they all have in common is that their battery manufacturer sheet say they are HY-TAFEL batteries, a competitor of CATL.
Take another one for example CALB another competitor of CATL who has recently lost a lawsuit for patent infringement. More flags are raised when you look more into it. They infringed on 5 patents, one of which is for “Explosion-Proof Device (CN205231128U)”
As stated in this article: https://www.wispro.com/en/catl-and-...nt-offenses-and-defense-war-tend-to-be-harsh/
I personally don’t know what a company like CALB could do to further cut corners on something like “Explosion-Proof Device” but I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that to find out.
Point is, a lot of the Chinese sales strategy is have lots of variety and see what sticks, just look at temu & shein. Alibaba is no saint in this strategy either. They primarily prey on people’s ignorance and that’s unethical no mater how ethical they want to convince you they are. Not speaking on every Chinese company. CATL clearly has done it right, proven multiple times. However, CATL is not a generic term for Chinese batteries but the uneducated public searches for them like they are. Then the sneaky distributors who receive random grade batteries from several manufacturers slap a CATL QR code and suddenly people believe they’re genuine CATL when they are not. That’s also to say that companies like Starmax (from my example earlier) who do in house spot welding, could be mixing manufacturers or worse, battery chemistries due to their lack of knowledge. EVE Batteries are 304Ah cells and CATL Batteries are 302Ah cells etc etc…
Too many variables to mess with.

This is my take, and my upset some:
Many here are looking for a quick and relatively cheap bolt in upgrade, that the can do for 1/2 the going rate for a shop to do in this country.
Fine, I get it. but you are looking for a unicorn.
If I were 40 years younger, may be even 20 years younger, I would be also. However I would buy a wrecked Leaf with the battery case and BMS for the size pack I wanted to "experiment on". Have a concrete floor shop and a two post side by side lift. I wouldn't expect perfection on the 1st go, which is why I wouldn't want to use the pack and case currently in my car to make the experiment with.
High voltage DC is nothing to play with without the correct tools, yes it is nuts and bolts dis assembling the pack, but there are times that you will be dealing with enough voltage to kill you either though direct contact or via arc blast. SO, kitting up with the proper tools is essential.
Going with a used pack, like I believe Stanton did, eliminates a whole lot of the guess work and trial and error, but also leaves you with a used pack. It can be a great way to go if you do your homework on the pack you are buying and can leave you with your old pack for home power/ back up if things go wrong down the road, just re install your old pack.
There is a basement to cost of cells, and the cheaper you go the more incentive for the mfg to skimp on the quality. Once you add in all the extra costs, unless you plan to make a business of it, I am not sure you are going to save all that much.
I had a career of making modifications of things, and I can say the one thing I learned is: you never get it right on the 1st go around. You learn a lot, but if you try and do it "one and done" you either end up living with compromises you didn't foresee, (best case) or end up having to start again (worse case).
In the case of the Leaf battery, you are almost always looking to China for cells, China does produce some good quality stuff, up there with the best, but also lots of knock-off copies of dubious quality or worse. If you are buying and installing as a business, and buy in steady quantities, you can likely hook up with a quality wholesaler who's reputation and future sales are on the line with ever unit he ships. If you are looking for one Leaf battery worth, there is little incentive to do that. Add to that any claim for defects are going to have to be negotiated over long distance and expensive return shipping.
Let me be clear: We need businesses that are willing to take on the EV market and make the contact and supply lines. There are such people now but more are needed. If there are more, and more cars get new and upgraded packs, the cost will come down and the accessibility will increase.
But to find the unicorn in the pile of crap by looking at flashy websites and to have it all work out the 1st time with no added costs, and have it last as long or longer than the OEM is a almost imposable task for the one-off buyer.
At best, using your old packs case, bms and contactors etc you are going to save 1/2 over what commercial shops charge to do the job and stand behind their work. The only other gain is you get to keep your old cells.
If you add in buying a wreck to not cut up your original pack, the special tools, the CAN bridge, the price out the door isn't that much cheaper.
Again if I were 20,30 or 40 years younger I might look into buying direct and kitting myself out to do the work, then take on paying customers to do more of it, it should be a growing field as batteries age but cars remain otherwise useable.

 

[MikeinPA]

IH guy, I agree with all of this. But on top of all your points is the safety issue. That is what is really bugging me at this point. Suppose there are kids in the Leaf when the pack goes up?

 

[noelho]

This is my take, and my upset some:

Totally agree. I do not have the expertise, time or garage space to experiment, hence will not buy any of those cells or modules, or the kits.

There were some local businesses here in NZ that looked into rebuilding packs, but nothing stuck. I think it all just fell into the "too hard basket", due to the added costs and complications of warranties and certifications.

 

[cornbinder89]

IH guy, I agree with all of this. But on top of all your points is the safety issue. That is what is really bugging me at this point. Suppose there are kids in the Leaf when the pack goes up?

I'm more worried about the inexperienced playing around with that high voltage DC. Once the pack is sealed back up, it will take some doing before the car is burning to the point you can't exit quickly enough, and should be plenty of warning if someone is paying attention.
Gasoline and diesel vehicle burn with such regularity that it is not news worthy. In almost all cases, today that vehicle has a fire, the vehicle is a total loss, just to much wiring and electrical stuff to repair a fire effected vehicle.
Get out and get your loved ones out, if there is time a few belonging and stand back. Let fire crews handle it.

 

[Bombastinator2]

I'm more worried about the inexperienced playing around with that high voltage DC. Once the pack is sealed back up, it will take some doing before the car is burning to the point you can't exit quickly enough, and should be plenty of warning if someone is paying attention.
Gasoline and diesel vehicle burn with such regularity that it is not news worthy. In almost all cases, today that vehicle has a fire, the vehicle is a total loss, just to much wiring and electrical stuff to repair a fire effected vehicle.
Get out and get your loved ones out, if there is time a few belonging and stand back. Let fire crews handle it.

 

[MikeinPA]

Agreed, the statistics are that an ICE car is about 200X more likely to catch on fire. But that is with professionally designed and tested hardware--not DIY efforts. If it was LTO or LFP cells, I would say have at it--they cant burn. But lithium cells from an unknown manufacturer? With a possibly modified BMS and definitely modified harness? In a case lacking the factory venting provisions? With cells potentially being used at 5 or 10 times their rated current? I build small lithium batteries for several different projects--and I never ever take these things for granted.

Having 50 or 60 kwh of cell's energy in the pack and going exothermic? Here is an ebike battery (probably abused LiPOs) going exothermic.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Knew of a guy that was killed by a battery. He put a new gen cell in an old gen mod. (The old gen mods are listed as “do not use ever”) The thing about the old gen cells is they weren’t as powerful. You could contain a thermal RA away battery explosion with just a few mm of stainless steel. The newer ones weren’t like that. So the pressure would build up and the container would rupture. That’s how pipe bombs and hand grenades work. Dude was cut by shrapnel in his neck. Bled out in seconds. It’s a major reason I won’t use wireless ear buds. I don’t stick bombs in my skull. Even tiny ones.

 

[noelho]

Just by sheer luck, this video popped up on youtube today, and it turns out to be a local NZ business that can do battery upgrades for Nissan Leaf. It isnt their main business and they did the upgrades for their friends and family, hence never advertised it!


Looks like I will be saving up money to get my pack upgraded with them. I reckon it will work out to be same if I ordered a pack from VIVNE, when all the additional costs are taken into account (shipping, customs, garage rental/hire to do the swap).

Very excited and happy to have found someone local who can sort it out! yay!

 

[Ianlighting]

Just by sheer luck, this video popped up on youtube today, and it turns out to be a local NZ business that can do battery upgrades for Nissan Leaf. It isnt their main business and they did the upgrades for their friends and family, hence never advertised it!


Looks like I will be saving up money to get my pack upgraded with them. I reckon it will work out to be same if I ordered a pack from VIVNE, when all the additional costs are taken into account (shipping, customs, garage rental/hire to do the swap).

Very excited and happy to have found someone local who can sort it out! yay!

Interesting.

As you’ll be talking direct would you be able to find out exactly what modules they use and share the info here?

I could go direct but there’s a risk they could get inundated with people asking the same questions. I’m not in NZ so don’t want to waste their time.

I’m interested in the 60+kWh approach. It was strange, he said 68 several times but flipped to 62 at one point. He was also less confident about that capacity. The struggle to it all in is less of an issue to me, it’s really about how a smaller original BMS handles that larger capacity.

So are they modifying the BMS at all?
Do they use a CAN Bridge, if so which one? I’d guess since EVEnhanced is NZ based it would be theirs?

I’m happy you’re happy, and getting a local firm involved is always reassuring, but presumably Mike’s previous concerns on this forum all still apply here.

I’d really love to know which modules they are!

EDIT: there’s another video on their channel. There’s a very important nugget of info at 04:00, “you won’t access the full capacity”, meaning of the 40kWh pack with the 24kWh BMS. Implication to me is that it behaves like a 24.

He also very annoyingly constantly says kilowatt instead of kilowatt hour. There’s a very important distinction there!

You should write a very clear list of requirements to make sure you get what you want out if this. There could be mismatched assumptions here.

 

[nlspace]

@noelho said:

Just by sheer luck, this video popped up on youtube today,

Noticed a lack of the pre-charge and main contactors, current sensor, plus the safety disconnect plug, in the upgrade version--maybe it wasn't completed yet?

[edit: in the second video he mentions these will be added, so nevermind]

 

[pstarSR]

I have seen these videos as I also have been tracking the battery 3rd party options. one that has peaked my interest and seems to be a more complete package, or atleast they portray it as a complete package.



www.vivnevs.com

the only thing im wondering and worried is this could be part of sanctions/ restrictions. those catl cells are what we want, but they are produced in china and right now the US and china are fighting. I feel like these could get stuck on that side of the pond for some.

( excuse me if this has been posted before, catching up in the threads )

 

[Ianlighting]

I have seen these videos as I also have been tracking the battery 3rd party options. one that has peaked my interest and seems to be a more complete package, or atleast they portray it as a complete package.



www.vivnevs.com

the only thing im wondering and worried is this could be part of sanctions/ restrictions. those catl cells are what we want, but they are produced in china and right now the US and china are fighting. I feel like these could get stuck on that side of the pond for some.

( excuse me if this has been posted before, catching up in the threads )

Yes, you should rewind, as much discussion on Vivne already. TL-DR - inconclusive.

 

[ZE0SV]

( excuse me if this has been posted before, catching up in the threads )

Yes, go back a few pages on this thread. We are talking about VIVNE and general 3rd party battery swaps

 

[pstarSR]

roger thanks guys.

 

[MikeinPA]

Just by sheer luck, this video popped up on youtube today, and it turns out to be a local NZ business that can do battery upgrades for Nissan Leaf. It isnt their main business and they did the upgrades for their friends and family, hence never advertised it!


Looks like I will be saving up money to get my pack upgraded with them. I reckon it will work out to be same if I ordered a pack from VIVNE, when all the additional costs are taken into account (shipping, customs, garage rental/hire to do the swap).

Very excited and happy to have found someone local who can sort it out! yay!

Those cells look like these https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/CATL-6S1P-114ah-4s1p-14-8v_1600886353405.html . This is the "Starmax CATL" 6s1p module. These are manufactured by Huizhou Wanhong Energy Technology Co., Ltd. https://whepower0752.en.alibaba.com/ and they are not automotive modules. Golf carts, power walls, etc. Not Nissan Leafs.

 

[Bombastinator2]

My understanding is that these catl batteries are near solid state capacities without being solid state. The question seems to be the assembly. If the batteries are assembled in a non-aligned country like, say India, that can trade with both the U.S. and mainland China such a thing would be a non-problem because it would become an Indian battery pack that happened to have catl cells in it. U.S. stuff is in flux, partially because of the election. Solid state batteries are comming though. Looking at stuff it seems to me like these things are only going to have about a 6-12 month window of superiority. This is predicting the future though which is usually fuzzy at best, particularly about timelines. As an example: To make money on shorts you have to be able to predict both THAT an entity is going down and when. The “the “that” isn’t too hard, but the when generally is. This makes shorts massively less powerful.
The CATL batteries are the best now. It is doubtful that the will remain so though, and the amount of time they will be is probably less than the lifetime of a current battery.

Doing the CATL batteries is effectively a short on solid state batteries. How far away are they? Etc…. Trying to deal with the future is a pain.

 

[unBMievable]

Interesting.

As you’ll be talking direct would you be able to find out exactly what modules they use and share the info here?

I could go direct but there’s a risk they could get inundated with people asking the same questions. I’m not in NZ so don’t want to waste their time.

I’m interested in the 60+kWh approach. It was strange, he said 68 several times but flipped to 62 at one point. He was also less confident about that capacity. The struggle to it all in is less of an issue to me, it’s really about how a smaller original BMS handles that larger capacity.

So are they modifying the BMS at all?
Do they use a CAN Bridge, if so which one? I’d guess since EVEnhanced is NZ based it would be theirs?

I’m happy you’re happy, and getting a local firm involved is always reassuring, but presumably Mike’s previous concerns on this forum all still apply here.

I’d really love to know which modules they are!

EDIT: there’s another video on their channel. There’s a very important nugget of info at 04:00, “you won’t access the full capacity”, meaning of the 40kWh pack with the 24kWh BMS. Implication to me is that it behaves like a 24.

He also very annoyingly constantly says kilowatt instead of kilowatt hour. There’s a very important distinction there!

You should write a very clear list of requirements to make sure you get what you want out if this. There could be mismatched assumptions here.

You could go direct, yes, I do not bite!
However, I do prefer hiding in the workshop to making YouTube videos, but I guess we have to put out there what we can do, to show it is indeed possible!

So, it's 68kw modules, but lbc is the 62kw version. You can buy all sizes and capacity of cells/modules.
Yes, we use a can bridge, you cannot pair a bigger pack then factory without one, no, it's not ev enhanced can bridge.
That other video was our first time for that setup, 40kw modules, but using a 24kw lbc reflashed into a 30kw, which seems to be able to access 32-34kw of the 40kw pack, so it's not being pushed as full or as low as it otherwise would, and it's a cheaper option then sourcing 40kw lbc and second current sensor and wiring loom.

I rarely bother to post on forums as I tend to spend my time more on showing what is possible, what can and has been done, and a lot less on carrying about kW, kWh, and other nit picking details. Also new to YouTube, but wanted to post a couple of videos to show that instead of talking about it for years like other people \ companies, we just got it done. The cars are out there, they work rather well.
So certainly, Leaf battery upgrades can be done, to a fairly decent level, if you find someone who can be bothered.

You could also hit up Oz Electric, they have agents in most countries and can do Leaf upgrades as well, we are their nz agent.

https://ozelectricvehicles.com.au/pages/licensed-installers

 

[Ianlighting]

He, won't bite if you go direct.
But he will point out, hit up Oz Electric, they have agents worldwide and can do Leaf upgrades.

https://ozelectricvehicles.com.au/pages/licensed-installers

His company is their NZ agent.

68kw modules, 62kw lbc. It should see most of the 68kw pack, but not my favourite upgrade.

Yes can bridge, no not ev enhanced.
You can't pair a bigger then factory pack to a Leaf without a can bridge.

24kw lbc, reflashed into 30kw. 40kw of modules. Sure, you can throw $1200 at a 40kw lbc, a bit more to get the second current sensor, a bit more for wiring loom. But then if your that hungry for range, buy a bigger upgrade. That video was a affordable upgrade we completed, using quality modules we know won't fail, and since the lbc can't access whole pack capacity, it should last a very long time as it's not getting a hard life.

Maybe try to focus more on the fact that I'm showing what's easily possible, and less on what terms I use aye?

Are there 2 of you using the same account? Or is the same/ similar message types out twice? Either way, good of you to engage in the ongoing conversation here about what’s possible.

My first question is do you mind sharing which make / model of modules you are using?

Second - are you able to source 62kWh BMS / LBC, or do you rely on salvage? I have no problem with scrapped units, just interested.

Sorry if you don’t like people pointing out the difference between kWh and kW. Personally I think it’s very important as they define different things.

If you use the same label for energy / capacity and power it’s just a recipe for confusion. Best just to use the right labels then everyone is talking the same language. Can’t see what’s wrong with that. It makes communication easier, not harder if we use the same terms.

 

[Miliki]

He leído todo el hilo y entiendo que cambiar la batería original del Leaf por una batería catl de la misma capacidad solo pondría la Cambridge y el BMS soportaría ese cambio sin problema, no entiendo de electricidad ni de electrónica y estoy barajando la posibilidad de hacer ese cambio en mi lead 62, que ha perdido el 50% de capacidad, a través de un especialista que ya ha realizado con éxito muchas reparaciones y upgrades con celdas LG con buenos resultados, ¿debo quedarme tranquilo por seguridad? Es un tema que me preocupa