SHENZHEN FACTORY TECHNOLOGY battery packs- is it real?

[Bombastinator2]

I don't. Elsewhere on the intertubes people have identified the MCU and from there it is easy to find the software and tools . I just won't believe the folks putting blue cells into used battery enclosures are also super qualified electrical engineers without real proof. Like a before and after LS screen grab of the same BMS before and after "flashing". And a picture of the tools needed to do it next to the VIVNES lift.

Can you put 50 kwh of cells into a battery with a 24 kwh BMS and get full use of the new capacity? Show me some proof.

Can you put 24 kwh of new cells into a Leaf with a 24 kwh BMS? Yes. Is it safe? Will it work? If the cells stay in balance, yes. Ditto for other Leaf versions. Can you take a 60 kwh leaf battery, replace the cells, and put it into a 2014 Leaf while including a CAN bridge? Yes. Ditto for other variations. Does any of this require "flashing" the BMS? No. Could you place the CAN bridge inside the battery enclosure? Yes.

I very much hope people realize how risky it is to spend money on a solution like this coming out of a garage somewhere in Asia. People make claims...we need real proof that these people are doing what they claim. it's not just the money, there are very real safety issues.

I like the link on “MCU”. My first thought was “Marvel Comics Universe” which makes no sense.

 

[noelho]

That is just a trifle disingenuous, I think. NMC manufacturing costs are lower in China, but still barely below 100$/kwh (look it up). Then the manufacturer would need to sell these automotive modules outside of their normal distribution. Call it $150 to $200 for new grade A CATL modules inside China. Then VIVNE has to take these as a raw material input, put all of the labor into making the metal boxes, harnesses, assembly, testing, flashing BMSs, packing, advertising, overhead, etc--then make a little profit.

BYD is heavily subsidized. https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/ And still I would estimate the 60 kwh battery pack at 80$/kwh to manufacture and this is the much cheaper LFP type.

Edit: BYD & CATL LFP cells right now are 60$/kwh to car manufactures, NMC will be more. This volume sales under long term contracts. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/26/catl-byd-to-slash-battery-prices-by-50-in-2024-boom-evs-win/

BYD is just one example. All their EVs are pretty much around that price difference vs overseas

 

[noelho]

Having lived in China - life is cheap, and screwing over customers is standard business operating procedure.

China today vs China 10 years ago is very different. And last i checked, dodgy businesses exist everywhere, not just China.

Do you remember what happened to Renault with the Twizzy launch??

Yes, not just that, but there are plenty of other copy cat cars in China too. This is no different when the US was an emerging country, copying from UK and Europe. Lawsuits were brought forward and laws were enacted. Same in China. Its always evolving and improving.

Or just this last week, using contaminated tankers partly filled with toxic chemicals to then transport cooking oils - apparently also something that has become standard practice in the Chinese transport industry over the last couple of years - until it was exposed last week.

FYI, that contaminated tanker issue is not the norm, otherwise you would have food poisoning all over the place. Again, an issue with dodgy business. This kinda **** still happens even in the USA.

Boeing is a prime example of people cutting corners for profit, not caring about people's lives. There are plenty more such scandals in the US. Do we blame all of USA for these dodgy business? No.

So why are you all making blanket statements about China for the dodgy actions of a few companies?

With regards to VIVNE, we will just have to wait and see. I am hoping for the best, especially since Riore has already ordered a pack.

 

[MikeinPA]

With regards to VIVNE, we will just have to wait and see.

Disagree. They have claimed to "reprogram BMS" with absolutely no proof that is even possible. Six to eight thousand dollars is a lot to pay for something that is not as advertised. What cells they are using is also open to reasonable questions, given the absurdly low cost.

We trust an advertiser to provide honest information.

 

[noelho]

Disagree. They have claimed to "reprogram BMS" with absolutely no proof that is even possible. Six to eight thousand dollars is a lot to pay for something that is not as advertised. What cells they are using is also open to reasonable questions, given the absurdly low cost.

We trust an advertiser to provide honest information.

I agree. As far as I can tell, everything they have advertised is only plausible and not confirmed, which is why I didnt order a pack from them and have been in contact with them trying to get more information from them.

You may very well be proven right when Riore gets their pack, but until then, we are left speculating. For Riore's sake, I really hope it is as advertised.

 

[MikeinPA]

You may very well be proven right when Riore gets their pack,

Proven right about what? I am not trying to prove anything.

The burden of proof is on mr Luo to show they are "reprogramming BMS" and that his product is safe and will be a valid replacement part for this automobile. There are large safety concerns with remanufacturing an EV battery pack, let alone "reprogramming BMS". How is VIVNE qualified for this?

The more I look at this the more worried I get. Even properly certified EV batteries catch on fire--imagine what might happen with something out of a garage somewhere in Asia.

 

[noelho]

Proven right about what? I am not trying to prove anything.

That they are not able to produce what they advertise

 

[noelho]

What cells they are using is also open to reasonable questions, given the absurdly low cost.

This got me curious to the cost of the cells if we order them from a manufacturer, and a quick check on Alibaba, show that export prices are crazy cheap from a wide range of suppliers.

One example of 62kWh worth of batteries from these guys came up to USD4k, not including shipping.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...=a2700.details.you_may_like.10.1dd711ee7ZIiN7

This would explain several different youtube videos I've seen of businesses offering these battery upgrades

 

[MikeinPA]

This got me curious to the cost of the cells if we order them from a manufacturer, and a quick check on Alibaba, show that export prices are crazy cheap from a wide range of suppliers.

One example of 62kWh worth of batteries from these guys came up to USD4k, not including shipping.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...=a2700.details.you_may_like.10.1dd711ee7ZIiN7

This would explain several different youtube videos I've seen of businesses offering these battery upgrades

Yes, by all means, use Starmax as an example. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...-eve-and-offers-only-no-name-lfp-cells.83923/

After even more thinking...I am even more frightened by the idea they might be reprogramming BMSs than I am doubtful. What could possible go wrong with a third part hacking into a a critical safety component? I think I will go out and put holes in my brake lines just to see what happens.

 

[noelho]

Yes, by all means, use Starmax as an example. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...-eve-and-offers-only-no-name-lfp-cells.83923/

Uh? That guy made an accusation, and the supplier replied refuting his accusation. Thats what you are going with?

As opposed to the company running for 5 years on Alibaba, Verified and refund policy from Alibaba?

After even more thinking...I am even more frightened by the idea they might be reprogramming BMSs than I am doubtful. What could possible go wrong with a third part hacking into a a critical safety component? I think I will go out and put holes in my brake lines just to see what happens.

You do you.

 

[MikeinPA]

Thats what you are going with?

You can literally go to the first Starmax CATL ad that comes up, that claims CATL, but the data sheet is for something called HY-TAFEL. https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.5.617a7121V5YwxP

 

[MikeinPA]

That they are not able to produce what they advertise

You are asking me to prove a negative! Nice! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy) I do those for breakfast. for lunch I will be squaing the circle. may be a long lunch.

 

[Ianlighting]

There’s a new vid up on Vivne’s channel, 62kWh shipping to Australia… so I guess that’s @Riore ‘s new purchase. Fingers crossed this does work!

I hope Riore can give us a step by step break down of this when it arrives.

 

[noelho]

You are asking me to prove a negative! Nice! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy) I do those for breakfast. for lunch I will be squaing the circle. may be a long lunch.

I didnt ask you to prove anything. My original comment "You may very well be proven right when Riore gets their pack", was based on your comment "They have claimed to "reprogram BMS" with absolutely no proof that is even possible", which implies that VIVNE may not be able to provide a working product.

You can literally go to the first Starmax CATL ad that comes up, that claims CATL, but the data sheet is for something called HY-TAFEL. https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.5.617a7121V5YwxP

The product title says "CATL TAFEL" and the product specifications say HY-TAFEL. It appears that they are advertising that TAFEL battery as some brand that is equivalent to the CATL batteries, as they list the specifications and example photos as TAFEL.

They have other listings for actual CATL batteries, but if you don't want to trust them, there are plenty of other CATL distributors on there.

Also distributors/manufacturers of other batteries, and their price points are quite similar.

So back to the point, batteries are already relatively cheap now, and will be getting cheaper, which is great news for us.

 

[Bombastinator2]

I didnt ask you to prove anything. My original comment "You may very well be proven right when Riore gets their pack", was based on your comment "They have claimed to "reprogram BMS" with absolutely no proof that is even possible", which implies that VIVNE may not be able to provide a working product.


The product title says "CATL TAFEL" and the product specifications say HY-TAFEL. It appears that they are advertising that TAFEL battery as some brand that is equivalent to the CATL batteries, as they list the specifications and example photos as TAFEL.

They have other listings for actual CATL batteries, but if you don't want to trust them, there are plenty of other CATL distributors on there.

Also distributors/manufacturers of other batteries, and their price points are quite similar.

So back to the point, batteries are already relatively cheap now, and will be getting cheaper, which is great news for us.

I feel “cheap” is a strong word, but everything is relative.

 

[Riore]

There’s a new vid up on Vivne’s channel, 62kWh shipping to Australia… so I guess that’s @Riore ‘s new purchase. Fingers crossed this does work!

I hope Riore can give us a step by step break down of this when it arrives.

Not my pack sadly its still waiting on testing, it would be interesting if we can find the buyer of the pack though. I ordered the 68kWh pack, my heart did skip a beat when I saw the video come up on facebook.

As for all the discussion on the BMS they do sell it separately on their website which obviously has a brief description on what they have done, this part intrigued me, "AZE0 will definitely not appear “turtle” during the whole process. If "turtle" appears, it only means it is out of power and needs to be charged. You can also charge to 4.2V."
https://www.vivnevs.com/products/ni...ming-for-ze0-aze0-ze1-env200?VariantsId=12755

Increased the charge max voltage per cell and removed turtle mode, which could be bypassed with cruise control anyway.

 

[MikeinPA]

Riore, I sincerely hope you get 300,000 miles out of your new pack. Very sincerely.

I am looking at two things that don't add up for me--very low cost per kwh on a hand built battery pack and odd claims of BMS reprogramming. Odd--because why bother if a CAN bridge is all that is needed?

I would think a rock bottom price would be at least $200 / kwh for genuine CATL cells that have been custom assembled and tested.

As for what their BMSs are accomplishing--their examples are identical to what is doable now with a CAN bridge. To elaborate, it is very likely each version of stock Nissan BMS can handle about 20% more kwh than their nominal rating. So a 24 kwh BMS can work with up to 28 kwh of battery, and so on up to a 60 kwh BMS working with up to 72 kwh. And to adapt the new battery's size to the old VCM, all that is needed is a CAN bridge. The 2 port CAN bridge is tiny, and could easily be installed within the BMS case itself in a simple rework. In that the bridges are a few dollars, this is cheap and simple. Why go through a reprogramming at all?

Edit, the 4.2 volt charging was added to the CAN bridge programming a while back IIRC. I don't know about the turtle issues--but the turtle would very likely be something the BMS is sending and a CAN bridge could correct that as well.

"AZE0 will definitely not appear “turtle” during the whole process. If "turtle" appears, it only means it is out of power and needs to be charged.

If one installs too many kwh for a given stock BMS, the behavior is likely a turtle before the new batteries are fully discharged. So, a 24 kwh BMS with 35 kwh of replacement cells works fine until about 28 kwh of energy is used, then the BMS thinks either its current measurement is bad or its voltage measurement is bad and sends a turtle. The only solution is a larger BMS--or possibly reprogramming an existing BMS for larger capacity. The latter is not something I have seen any real evidence for.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Riore, I sincerely hope you get 300,000 miles out of your new pack. Very sincerely.

I am looking at two things that don't add up for me--very low cost per kwh on a hand built battery pack and odd claims of BMS reprogramming. Odd--because why bother if a CAN bridge is all that is needed?

I would think a rock bottom price would be at least $200 / kwh for genuine CATL cells that have been custom assembled and tested.

As for what their BMSs are accomplishing--their examples are identical to what is doable now with a CAN bridge. To elaborate, it is very likely each version of stock Nissan BMS can handle about 20% more kwh than their nominal rating. So a 24 kwh BMS can work with up to 28 kwh of battery, and so on up to a 60 kwh BMS working with up to 72 kwh. And to adapt the new battery's size to the old VCM, all that is needed is a CAN bridge. The 2 port CAN bridge is tiny, and could easily be installed within the BMS case itself in a simple rework. In that the bridges are a few dollars, this is cheap and simple. Why go through a reprogramming at all?

Edit, the 4.2 volt charging was added to the CAN bridge programming a while back IIRC. I don't know about the turtle issues--but the turtle would very likely be something the BMS is sending and a CAN bridge could correct that as well.


If one installs too many kwh for a given stock BMS, the behavior is likely a turtle before the new batteries are fully discharged. So, a 24 kwh BMS with 35 kwh of replacement cells works fine until about 28 kwh of energy is used, then the BMS thinks either its current measurement is bad or its voltage measurement is bad and sends a turtle. The only solution is a larger BMS--or possibly reprogramming an existing BMS for larger capacity. The latter is not something I have seen any real evidence form

Maybe they’re saving money because it’s just code rather than hardware. I don’t think they’d be saving enough to make that price though given your cost estimates. BS and caveat emptor. Is the way of capitalism.

 

[noelho]

Maybe they’re saving money because it’s just code rather than hardware. I don’t think they’d be saving enough to make that price though given your cost estimates. BS and caveat emptor. Is the way of capitalism.

Those CATL NMC battery modules in the VIVNE videos are going for USD $60-70 per kWh on Alibaba.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Those CATL NMC battery modules in the VIVNE videos are going for USD $60-70 per kWh on Alibaba.

So either the estimate is wrong or they aren’t the batteries you think they are. Rewrraps are so prevalent in e-cigs that getting a. Supplier who can buy direct from the manufacturer is critical.