The Battery Replacement Thread

[TimLee]

I don't necessarily think that Nissan is deliberately changing the software to ensure that few drivers are eligible for battery replacement regardless of degree of capacity loss. But people will always suspect them of it, and there's no way for drivers or Nissan to conclusively prove in court that the software was or wasn't fudged.

I dunno... to me that seems like the kind of thing that would come out in pre-trial discovery. Even if the source code itself was considered a trade secret, the behavior of the instrumentation vs. the state of the battery could be compared between the two versions, no?

If there had been pre-trial discovery.
The most valid complaint was lack of discovery.
At least Nissan is entering into mediation with the objectors.
But a real discovery phase seems to be unlikely in my opinion.

 

[rslatkin]

Can anyone name a single thing that Nissan has followed through on?

They took my money and actually sold me a real electric car I can drive every day. I waited 15 years for that!

 

[TomT]

As long as the range doesn't degrade to the point where you no longer can...

They took my money and actually sold me a real electric car I can drive every day. I waited 15 years for that!

 

[Valdemar]

It's interesting that you are a 4BL... My car is slightly older than yours and about the same mileage, and is just about to become a 3BL... I'm anticipating becoming a 4BL sometime this fall or winter...

I'm joining the battery replacement club. I lost my 4th capacity bar on 4/14/2014, having driven the LEAF as my primary vehicle for almost 3 years.

As another data point I've driven more miles than either of you and still have 11 bars, probably not for much longer though. My car was manufactured in July 2011. It was parked in the underground garage during week days and charged to 80% on the end of charge timer almost exclusively until last August.

 

[Pipcecil]

I agree the battery replacement warranty is a little sketchy and non-specific. The "trigger" is 4 bars lost, and then Nissan confirms you have indeed dropped below 70% capacity, which they do not disclose how that is determined.

While Nissan says the BMS is "conservative" and tries to overestimate loss, its still a 4% swing (as stated from the previous software update). That means you could be down to 62.26% capacity and still have that 4th bar lingering around. That's almost 8% below the limit. I think Nissan is going to run into problems with people utilizing Leaf Spy or other software to get close estimates of capacity that show degradation well below 70% but no loss of the 4th bar while hitting the upper limit of the warranty (miles or time).

The warranty, from a legal standpoint is poorly done. The 4th bar shouldn't be a required trigger (its not directly stated as such, but heavily implied), but the Nissan Official Battery Capacity Test (tm) is the actual true mark for a replacement. Because of that, ANYONE with any # of bars should be able to take their vehicle in and have the capacity checked to see if they qualify with the suggestion that 4 bars would be needed to reach the warranty.

That also makes me wonder. Say someone that doesn't have Leaf Spy/Leaf DD, etc. goes in for their normal yearly battery check. Does the yearly battery check also check capacity beyond the little bars (such as for the warranty?). Would Nissan or the Dealership divulge this info if indeed your battery is at the threshold required for replacement even though you would show only 3 bars? What if it was obvious (i.e. had 4 bars lost) and the customer didn't know about the warranty?

Hmm...

 

[Stoaty]

While Nissan says the BMS is "conservative" and tries to overestimate loss, its still a 4% swing (as stated from the previous software update). That means you could be down to 62.26% capacity and still have that 4th bar lingering around. That's almost 8% below the limit.

No, Nissan said that the P3227 only swings one way. :lol: The stated figures were 0 to -4%. Presumably that means that a 4 bar loser would have 66.25% to 70.25% remaining capacity.

 

[TomT]

Actually, 0 to -5%, based on what we were told at the Phoenix meeting last August... Prior to that it was +10 to -10%...

The stated figures were 0 to -4%. Presumably that means that a 4 bar loser would have 66.25% to 70.25% remaining capacity.

 

[Deleted member 770]

Sorry, just catching up on this thread...

Another couple of tidbits I picked up. First, the battery my 2011 LEAF will get as a replacement is a brand new battery from Japan. The technology is the same as the 2011/12 model, because the battery pack itself is different from the 2013 model (2013 model is slimmed down a bit, he said).

I HOPE this doesn't mean that 2011/2012 models will not be able to use the "hot weather tolerant" battery if/when it ever becomes available. I REALLY don't want to go through the hassle (and expense, if I miss the warranty, which it looks like I may) of replacing my first-gen battery with another first-gen battery which will again only be viable for 2-3 years before reaching end-of-useful-life.

You'd think that Nissan would be bending over backwards to help the "first-gen" buyers out - we're the biggest EVangelists, and if we sour on Nissan, we'd be the ones most likely to explain just WHY we went sour to anyone who asks. :x

Frankly, all I want is the ability to swap my battery for a new "hot weather tolerant" battery for a reasonable (3k-4k) trade-in price. Even if Nissan has to lose a few $$ on the exchanges, it would surely help them in the long run on PR.

 

[Weatherman]

As long as Nissan can keep on setting monthly sales records for the LEAF, they don't care one bit about the early adopters.

Anyone who bought or leased a 2011 or 2012, and paid through the nose for it, is on their own. If you leased, just be happy you can turn it in. If you bought, just hope you can get at least one battery replacement on Nissan's dime.

 

[mwalsh]

As long as Nissan can keep on setting monthly sales records for the LEAF, they don't care one bit about the early adopters.

Anyone who bought or leased a 2011 or 2012, and paid through the nose for it, is on their own. If you leased, just be happy you can turn it in. If you bought, just hope you can get at least one battery replacement on Nissan's dime.

The pessimist in me (and he's usually the one in control) thinks this will prove to be a correct analysis of the situation.

 

[danmeljeff]

Received a call from my NoGasEV case worker at 2p today. Techs have verified necessary battery loss, and a replacement battery has been ordered for my LEAF. He suspects the earliest it'll arrive at the service center is next Tuesday (May 6th), so is going to check with my service center then and circle back with me afterwards.

I did order the LEAFDD, and it looks like it'll get to me tomorrow. So, i'll grab some final stats from my original battery before it's swapped out. Perhaps just to give y'all another data point, with more specific info than 4CB loss.

 

[WetEV]

If you bought, just hope you can get at least one battery replacement on Nissan's dime.

Not a chance. Unless the warrantee is extended to something like 10 years/100,000 miles.

 

[DaveEV]

Good stuff, Jeff. What kind of range are you getting out of your LEAF with 4 bars down?

 

[Pipcecil]

No, Nissan said that the P3227 only swings one way. :lol: The stated figures were 0 to -4%. Presumably that means that a 4 bar loser would have 66.25% to 70.25% remaining capacity.

I hope that's right - we have seen many people have bars "linger" well below reported value from Leaf Spy. I know leaf spy is trying to interpret data and do its "best guess" but when people are 2-3% under the mark (and that's assuming their measured value is spot on at 0% tolerance), there is something else they are pulling from the car we are not seeing (or at least what the car is reporting). Is this just the fault of the Leaf Spy software not picking up the full picture or could he BMS be off swinging the other way despite what Nissan has said?

 

[Stoaty]

I hope that's right - we have seen many people have bars "linger" well below reported value from Leaf Spy. I know leaf spy is trying to interpret data and do its "best guess" but when people are 2-3% under the mark (and that's assuming their measured value is spot on at 0% tolerance), there is something else they are pulling from the car we are not seeing (or at least what the car is reporting). Is this just the fault of the Leaf Spy software not picking up the full picture or could he BMS be off swinging the other way despite what Nissan has said?

I'm pretty sure the capacity bars are based on an average of something like 6 weeks (read that somewhere on MNL), so rapid loss of capacity won't show on the capacity bars right away.

 

[Stanton]

I did order the LEAFDD, and it looks like it'll get to me tomorrow. So, i'll grab some final stats from my original battery before it's swapped out. Perhaps just to give y'all another data point, with more specific info than 4CB loss.

Take a pic of screen #2 (preferably after a 100% charge): that will give us the AHr, GIDs (both critical) and other pertinent info.

 

[Stanton]

As long as Nissan can keep on setting monthly sales records for the LEAF, they don't care one bit about the early adopters.

Anyone who bought or leased a 2011 or 2012, and paid through the nose for it, is on their own. If you leased, just be happy you can turn it in. If you bought, just hope you can get at least one battery replacement on Nissan's dime.

The pessimist in me (and he's usually the one in control) thinks this will prove to be a correct analysis of the situation.

The optimist in me says this just can't be true. I don't think Nissan would spend Billions of $$ on an EV platform just to make the "new" Leaf battery modules NOT compatible with the "old" ones? Not only that, it defeats the purpose of having form/fit/function compatibility across (eventually multiple) battery plants.

Having said that, I'm still concerned about the reality/availability of the "hot pack" until someone credible from Nissan makes a public statement/comment.

 

[danmeljeff]

I just got a call from my Nissan service center, informing me that the replacement battery pack has arrived. So, from 3p yesterday they were able to get a battery pack freighted from Japan? I certainly hope this is a new pack.

I need to call the service center back to setup my appointment, so will be asking a few questions then.

 

[mwalsh]

I just got a call from my Nissan service center, informing me that the replacement battery pack has arrived. So, from 3p yesterday they were able to get a battery pack freighted from Japan? I certainly hope this is a new pack.

I hope it is too. But be mindful that's not what the warranty promises. Just that the replacement will be new or refubished to be capable of charging to a minimum of 9 bars.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I'm pretty sure the capacity bars are based on an average of something like 6 weeks (read that somewhere on MNL), so rapid loss of capacity won't show on the capacity bars right away.

Now that you mention it, that makes sense. Without some hysteresis the capacity bar would cycle on and off at the threshold of changing.