Quick Charge L3 in LA, San Bernardino, Riverside Counties

[baronvonshush]

While in the clerks mentioned they thought the L3 was working, so when I went out I touched the screen. Lo and behold it did work.

This is excellent news, thanks for the report, Jason! I'm actually planning to go to Redlands on Sunday. My plan was to charge at Redlands Nissan if needed (my friend lives very close to there), but now I might go check out the quick charge instead.

Of course, there's a decent chance that if I drive carefully, I'll be able to make the round trip on one charge. Then it's a dilemma between getting a nice quick charge versus potentially setting a new personal range record.

 

[Ingineer]

So you want a constant power level usage from the utility to minimize the demand charge.

Exactly, this is why utilities have these peak demand structures. As responsible grid citizens we need to make sure we do as much as possible to flatten our peaks. You definitely don't want to try and game the system by cramming peaks into your 15 minute window. Besides, almost all utilities have smart metering, and they'll catch on pretty quick. The average smart meter can poll at sub 1 minute intervals, so they don't even have to leave the office to catch you!

If I were to install a QC in an area with unavoidable demand structures, I'd attempt to implement enough solar and maybe wind power to offset that demand. I would then set the QC to only allow up to ~15kW + whatever the alternative energy system is generating. This way if you show up when the sun is shining, you get a full 47kW QC. (the most the Leaf will handle) If you show up at night when there is no alt energy then you only get 15kW.

The second best idea is to install a battery buffer, but I don't like this as much. Likely to cost a lot more over the long haul, in both energy cost and maintenance. If anything, do a combination of the 2.

When you consider that all the existing QC sites have probably spent coming up on $100k total, it's not too much of a leap to add 40kW of solar. You can cover the parking spots, you can truly advertise "green power", you are being an excellent "grid citizen", and the large install is a good billboard for the site and the public in general. It shows we can solve our energy problems in a way that's good for the planet and still have our cars.

-Phil

 

[KJD]

If I were to install a QC in an area with unavoidable demand structures, I'd attempt to implement enough solar and maybe wind power to offset that demand. I would then set the QC to only allow up to ~15kW + whatever the alternative energy system is generating. This way if you show up when the sun is shining, you get a full 47kW QC. (the most the Leaf will handle) If you show up at night when there is no alt energy then you only get 15kW.

It looks to me like this is the best solution for demand charges. When you consider that solar modules can be bought for less than a dollar per watt now, it just makes even more tempting. All you have to do is buy a pallet at a time to get that price.

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[TonyWilliams]

When you consider that all the existing QC sites have probably spent coming up on $100k total, it's not too much of a leap to add 40kW of solar.

This is all great for rich guys that don't have to account for a payback (usually your tax money).

Here's the reality; there are not enough charging hours in the day to pay for these grandiose ideas. Big projects like you suggest mean big taxes, insurance, depreciation, maintenance, cost of capital, etc.

You mentioned that $5 was fair for a quick charge (granted, somewhat out of context), and there are plenty who think it should be "free". My simple question is how much per charge supports $150k in equipment?

SDG&E just spent $1 million on a similar setup to what you suggest.

 

[DaveEV]

SDG&E just spent $1 million on a similar setup to what you suggest.

That's completely different - they have a battery storage system to reduce peak loads, not a PV system.

In a commercial sized install you can probably get a PV system installed for $4/watt these days if not cheaper.

So assuming we want a system like Phil's idea where we have a ~30kW PV system, that would cost about $120k.

 

[TonyWilliams]

SDG&E just spent $1 million on a similar setup to what you suggest.

That's completely different - they have a battery storage system to reduce peak loads, not a PV system.

In a commercial sized install you can probably get a PV system installed for $4/watt these days if not cheaper.

So assuming we want a system like Phil's idea where we have a ~30kW PV system, that would cost about $120k.

It's exactly the same... With tracking PV at the SDGE site. The battery storage part of the equation was about $20k-$30k ($70k unit less about $40k-$50k for the "charger")

Yes, you can do it cheaper than $1m. My question, is how many hours are available to charge and how much will a charge cost for all this really expensive hardware?

 

[Ingineer]

If you colocate this at a business that already has a decent energy bill, then the energy saved on utilities over the coming years will pay for entire system + QC. This way you can justify offering low-cost ($5) QC sessions.

Personally, I don't think ANY QC should cost less than $5. That's enough to prevent the casual driver from just hogging the space to score some free power.

If we ever get our hands on the Nissan/Sumitomo unit, then you could recoup costs on this setup in a reasonable time.

Let's assume $50k for the grid-tie 40kW solar + QC. (No Batteries needed) If we had a minimum of 8 QC's a day at $5 each, that's probably $2.50 profit minimum per charge, so $20 a day. (I'm assuming the other half goes into the ongoing maintenance and miscellaneous costs.) This would pay for itself in under 7 years even if you don't take into account the reduction in your energy bill. Seems workable to me!

The main sell is that the business sees an immediate reduction in their utility bill. The 8 QC's are going to cost under 200kWh, and the solar system will make more than this on average. The goodwill to their customers and the planet is the main selling point though!

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

Also: If the QC sits idle, the system still pays for itself, and if the system gets more use, again, it still pays for itself. If you want a faster payoff, move to $8 or $10 per charge.

This setup assumes a smart device such as my design that monitors total demand in real-time, and throttles the QC such that demand is always below the penalty threshold.

Most people will be charging during the day, and will get the fast speeds with the solar offsetting demand, and at night the QC is still available, but slower (under 20kW).

-Phil

 

[jasonfsu]

I am not an electrical engineer, but I do understand a little about finance, so please take my question with a grain of salt.

Given the setup stated above with solar panels to partially power the business and the QC, why would a business owner want to spend ~$70K on a QC unit, plus the couple of wasted parking spaces? At $20 profit the simple payback period for that unit would be almost 10 years, and not a wise financial decision (it may be a wise decision - just not financially a good investment).

The owner would get the same benefits from installing solar panels without having to offer the QC, with high setup costs and (judging from the issues with the one L3 we know in SoCal) high maintenance.

 

[TonyWilliams]

it may be a wise decision - just not financially a good investment.

Probably the best single statement on the subject in general.

 

[abasile]

We used the Quick Charger this evening - very helpful in getting us home up the mountain in a convenient manner. We pulled up with 41% charge (according to Gary's SOC meter) and six battery temperature bars. It took a bit over 19 min. to charge to 80.4%. I had to stop it manually at that point. Of course, during the 19 min., we patronized the 7 Eleven.

I also had an opportunity to speak with Gil. He mentioned that the QC was turned back on just two days ago and that the owner is in the process of negotiating with Southern California Edison. The power level is still set at a maximum of 40 kW. They are asking LEAF owners using the QC to please patronize the 7 Eleven. I explained to Gil that whether one person uses the QC or hundreds of people, the monthly demand charges will not change. Of course, he might already understand that.

At this time, based on what I know, I would strongly encourage folks to come on out and take advantage of the Quick Charger. Thanks in particular to Tony and Tom for their dialogue with the owner and past groundwork! The owner would really like to have the support of the LEAF community.

Also, Gill says that it might be another couple of years before they install a QC at Waterman and Hospitality in San Bernardino. However, they expect a QC at Waterman and Mill to become available within several months. That is still reasonably convenient to the 10 freeway, a better location than the current QC for those heading up to Running Springs or Big Bear Lake, or perhaps out to Palm Springs.

 

[Ingineer]

I am not an electrical engineer, but I do understand a little about finance, so please take my question with a grain of salt.

Given the setup stated above with solar panels to partially power the business and the QC, why would a business owner want to spend ~$70K on a QC unit, plus the couple of wasted parking spaces? At $20 profit the simple payback period for that unit would be almost 10 years, and not a wise financial decision (it may be a wise decision - just not financially a good investment).

The owner would get the same benefits from installing solar panels without having to offer the QC, with high setup costs and (judging from the issues with the one L3 we know in SoCal) high maintenance.

Not everything is about money! It's this thinking that got us into this mess (Oil) in the first place. Some people care about the way we treat our planet and maybe want it to still be home for future generations. In fact, if we don't change our ways collectively, we'll probably see how bad it can get in our lifetimes!

If the oil supply is reduced, or becomes very expensive, the global economy will be severely impacted, especially here in the US, where so much depends on cheap transport.

Think of it as insurance, which is not ever a "money maker", but it sure as hell can prevent a catastrophe in the future!

I, for one, as a business owner, consumer, and a concerned inhabitant intend to do everything I can to help fix this mess. I already offer public level II charging, have drastically lowered the price of entry to EV charging, and intend on having a QC available to the public soon.

-Phil

 

[TangoKilo]

I am not an electrical engineer, but I do understand a little about finance, so please take my question with a grain of salt.

Given the setup stated above with solar panels to partially power the business and the QC, why would a business owner want to spend ~$70K on a QC unit, plus the couple of wasted parking spaces? At $20 profit the simple payback period for that unit would be almost 10 years, and not a wise financial decision (it may be a wise decision - just not financially a good investment).

The owner would get the same benefits from installing solar panels without having to offer the QC, with high setup costs and (judging from the issues with the one L3 we know in SoCal) high maintenance.

Not everything is about money! It's this thinking that got us into this mess (Oil) in the first place. Some people care about the way we treat our planet and maybe want it to still be home for future generations. In fact, if we don't change our ways collectively, we'll probably see how bad it can get in our lifetimes!

If the oil supply is reduced, or becomes very expensive, the global economy will be severely impacted, especially here in the US, where so much depends on cheap transport.

Think of it as insurance, which is not ever a "money maker", but it sure as hell can prevent a catastrophe in the future!

I, for one, as a business owner, consumer, and a concerned inhabitant intend to do everything I can to help fix this mess. I already offer public level II charging, have drastically lowered the price of entry to EV charging, and intend on having a QC available to the public soon.

-Phil

Thanks for the good work Phil

 

[garygid]

+10.1415926536

 

[haykinson]

The QC was quite helpful on my way both up and then down the mountain. I arrived at the 7-11 QC with barely 2 bars SOC. The QC took me to 80%+ and then shut down. On repeated plugging in it claimed a fault, so I switched to the L2 charger for another bar or so before heading up to a Forest Falls. There, I trickle charged for most of the day, then headed back down, again to the QC. This time I went up to almost 100% capacity, which took longer even though I started at about 70% SOC.

Of course, I shopped at the 7-11 while waiting. Thanks for the charger!

Of note, on the way up to 80% the charge was going at about 100 amps. But once it got to a certain point it went down to 20, then 15, then 7 amps. At some point I got tired of waiting and stopped the process.

 

[Herm]

On repeated plugging in it claimed a fault, so I switched to the L2 charger for another bar or so before heading up to a Forest Falls..

Is there a way to verify that the charger is in working conditions before you start the trip?

 

[Lopton]

On repeated plugging in it claimed a fault

I noticed this happened if the car was on in any mode, but as soon as I turned the car completely off the charger had no problems starting again, YMMV!

-Matt

 

[KJD]

Not everything is about money! It's this thinking that got us into this mess (Oil) in the first place. Some people care about the way we treat our planet and maybe want it to still be home for future generations. In fact, if we don't change our ways collectively, we'll probably see how bad it can get in our lifetimes!

If the oil supply is reduced, or becomes very expensive, the global economy will be severely impacted, especially here in the US, where so much depends on cheap transport.

Think of it as insurance, which is not ever a "money maker", but it sure as hell can prevent a catastrophe in the future!

I, for one, as a business owner, consumer, and a concerned inhabitant intend to do everything I can to help fix this mess. I already offer public level II charging, have drastically lowered the price of entry to EV charging, and intend on having a QC available to the public soon.

-Phil

I wish more people had this outlook on life.
KJD

 

[occ]

Not everything is about money! It's this thinking that got us into this mess (Oil) in the first place. Some people care about the way we treat our planet and maybe want it to still be home for future generations. In fact, if we don't change our ways collectively, we'll probably see how bad it can get in our lifetimes!

If the oil supply is reduced, or becomes very expensive, the global economy will be severely impacted, especially here in the US, where so much depends on cheap transport.

Think of it as insurance, which is not ever a "money maker", but it sure as hell can prevent a catastrophe in the future!

I, for one, as a business owner, consumer, and a concerned inhabitant intend to do everything I can to help fix this mess. I already offer public level II charging, have drastically lowered the price of entry to EV charging, and intend on having a QC available to the public soon.

-Phil

I wish more people had this outlook on life.
KJD

Hear, hear! Thanks Ingineer - Phil! If only we can clone a few more of you, one for each EV models out there.

 

[haykinson]

On repeated plugging in it claimed a fault, so I switched to the L2 charger for another bar or so before heading up to a Forest Falls..

Is there a way to verify that the charger is in working conditions before you start the trip?

I called the number listed on Recargo the day before and they said it was working.