Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

[salyavin]

I agree but I'd still rather they buy a Tesla than a Hummer. I am a bit of a pro EV person so having an EV as a fashion accessory or status item is just fine.

 

[Anonymous]

It is personal because I don't like to see misinformation win. Happens too often.

Posting a photo of a random fire on the side of a road with no context or explanation is basically the epitome of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

I would argue that the lack of Leaf fires after crashes is attributable to the massive crush zone (40-50 cm) between the side of the car and the first actual battery cell. Teslas, by comparison, have almost no gap (10-15 cm) because Tesla makes weird design choices. Many side collisions in Teslas damage the battery, but very, very few Leafs sustain any damage to the pack in crashes. Vast majority of EV fires are Tesla vehicles, even though the population size difference is only ~50%. So you can pick and choose which weights you'd assign to which design parameters - and the list is endless. Are Tesla drivers more reckless? Are Teslas driven faster in general? Which vehicle weighs more?

Yes, I know people have burned to death inside Teslas. That is ultimately a defect in the battery and door design; it's part of the reason Tesla added emergency latches to the 3 and Y doors and fire retardants to their batteries.

Just trying to confirm that you think the only reason EVs catch on fire is that they're liquid cooled. Have you seen any Bolt fires? Any Volt fires? Any Spark EV or Zoe fires? Any Smart Electric Drive fires? And so forth.

You're hyperfocusing on one variable - "is there liquid circulating in the pack?" - and ignoring everything else. Yeah, you might find a positive correlation on a graph plotting "number of battery fires" against "number of TMS per car." This is not a statistically sound approach.

What you seem not to understand, fundamentally, is that Nissan's reasoning was never about safety or cost of the TMS hardware. It was that way back in 2007, Nissan couldn't afford to fit more than 24 kWh of batteries in their prototype packs. They considered it pointless to add cooling to a car so obviously limited to city driving, especially when they had no understanding of battery degradation. Their executives didn't want to spend the R&D money redesigning the pack to have cooling, so they stuck with the same shitty design for literally a decade and destroyed the LEAF brand. You're looking at a rotten apple and saying it's better than a fresh apple because it's easier to turn into compost. Great, but a pound of apples is more valuable than a pound of compost.

Again, it's an irrational point to waste one's breath on because no modern automaker is going to introduce a new car without a TMS. You should know - you bought an etron. I literally cannot comprehend why you would argue about this.

 

[WetEV]

I'm not sold on the requirement for a TMS.

Says someone who lives in PNW. Move to LA or Phoenix and your opinion might change.

If you bothered to read what I wrote, people in the very hottest of places will find value in a TMS. As will road trippers and track drivers.

 

[WetEV]

I agree but I'd still rather they buy a Tesla than a Hummer. I am a bit of a pro EV person so having an EV as a fashion accessory or status item is just fine.

The Hummer has been electrified.

 

[WetEV]

It is personal because I don't like to see misinformation win. Happens too often.

Posting a photo of a random fire on the side of a road with no context or explanation is basically the epitome of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

FUD vs FUD.

Vast majority of EV fires are Tesla vehicles, even though the population size difference is only ~50%. So you can pick and choose which weights you'd assign to which design parameters - and the list is endless.

Multiple Tesla's have also caught fire while parked, while charging, while gently driving with no collision involved. I don't expect Musk to confirm a coolant leak issue. Do you?

Just trying to confirm that you think the only reason EVs catch on fire is that they're liquid cooled. Have you seen any Bolt fires? Any Volt fires? Any Spark EV or Zoe fires? Any Smart Electric Drive fires? And so forth.

Only reason? No, that's your strawman. Oh, and Zoes are not water cooled.

You're hyperfocusing on one variable - "is there liquid circulating in the pack?" - and ignoring everything else. Yeah, you might find a positive correlation on a graph plotting "number of battery fires" against "number of TMS per car." This is not a statistically sound approach.

Stop a second and notice that battery life is a lot more than liquid cooling. Please rethink.

What you seem not to understand, fundamentally, is that Nissan's reasoning was never about safety or cost of the TMS hardware. It was that way back in 2007, Nissan couldn't afford to fit more than 24 kWh of batteries in their prototype packs. They considered it pointless to add cooling to a car so obviously limited to city driving, especially when they had no understanding of battery degradation. Their executives didn't want to spend the R&D money redesigning the pack to have cooling, so they stuck with the same shitty design for literally a decade and destroyed the LEAF brand.

So you were in the room with the Nissan executives/engineers? How special. Do tell us more.

Again, it's an irrational point to waste one's breath on because no modern automaker is going to introduce a new car without a TMS. You should know - you bought an etron. I literally cannot comprehend why you would argue about this.

Yes, I bought an etron. And battery cooling wasn't a large part of the decision to buy.

There is a place for a car without a TMS. However, I agree that no automaker is going to introduce a new car in the USA without a TMS. FUD works, cheaper and easier to just put a TMS in the car than to combat FUD. And the etron is an example of a design where a TMS is a good choice. Not a commuting/around car design, like the LEAF or the Zoe.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I'm not sold on the requirement for a TMS.

Says someone who lives in PNW. Move to LA or Phoenix and your opinion might change.

You just confirmed his statement. TMS should be an option. Its funny to me that some here think its just a few hundred to add TMS. The price probably had dropped since the early EVs but I went thru the Focus EV class and also took the engineering class (optional) and the complexity of their TMS was significant. The monitoring equipment alone was more than "a few hundred"

 

[WetEV]

Re: "30 or 35 C", for reference, this is the observed behavior of Bolt's thermal management: https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/battery-conditioning.33279/#post-512173. When plugged in, apparently, the car cools the battery to 27 C (80.6 F).

27C is the lowest I've heard of any TMS cooling to, which might cause a problem with condensation in hot and humid places outside the USA.

Should say when "plugged in and no charging timer set", a minor correction.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I would argue that the lack of Leaf fires after crashes is attributable to the massive crush zone (40-50 cm) between the side of the car and the first actual battery cell. Teslas, by comparison, have almost no gap (10-15 cm) because Tesla makes weird design choices. Many side collisions in Teslas damage the battery, but very, very few Leafs sustain any damage to the pack in crashes.
Yes, I know people have burned to death inside Teslas. That is ultimately a defect in the battery and door design; it's part of the reason Tesla added emergency latches to the 3 and Y doors and fire retardants to their batteries.

So we are applauding Tesla's after the fact safety decisions? Pump em out there and let the customer figure out what we need to fix? I am grateful Nissan designed the pack to be "human proof"

https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/01/she-gave-all.html

FYI; the wheel was bent sideways but the car would still start up and drive. I started it to put it in neutral to get it on the flat bed but it would still shift to D and move.

What you seem not to understand, fundamentally, is that Nissan's reasoning was never about safety or cost of the TMS hardware. It was that way back in 2007, Nissan couldn't afford to fit more than 24 kWh of batteries in their prototype packs. They considered it pointless to add cooling to a car so obviously limited to city driving, especially when they had no understanding of battery degradation. Their executives didn't want to spend the R&D money redesigning the pack to have cooling, so they stuck with the same shitty design for literally a decade and destroyed the LEAF brand. You're looking at a rotten apple and saying it's better than a fresh apple because it's easier to turn into compost. Great, but a pound of apples is more valuable than a pound of compost.

Not true. They had a cell supply issue just like EVERY EV manufacturer in 2010. They did base their TMS decision on the results of a poorly designed cycling test that showed very promising results in VERY high heat (140º F) The pack ultimately did not live up to the test results because the time factor was not tested.

Again, it's an irrational point to waste one's breath on because no modern automaker is going to introduce a new car without a TMS. You should know - you bought an etron. I literally cannot comprehend why you would argue about this.

One pays $90,000 for a car and you think the decision was driven by "one" reason?? That statement is simply too crazy to comment on.

 

[Valdemar]

I'm not sold on the requirement for a TMS.

Says someone who lives in PNW. Move to LA or Phoenix and your opinion might change.

You just confirmed his statement. TMS should be an option. Its funny to me that some here think its just a few hundred to add TMS. The price probably had dropped since the early EVs but I went thru the Focus EV class and also took the engineering class (optional) and the complexity of their TMS was significant. The monitoring equipment alone was more than "a few hundred"

I suppose so, but EVs first need to grow beyond their niche status before that level of options can be offered.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Says someone who lives in PNW. Move to LA or Phoenix and your opinion might change.

You just confirmed his statement. TMS should be an option. Its funny to me that some here think its just a few hundred to add TMS. The price probably had dropped since the early EVs but I went thru the Focus EV class and also took the engineering class (optional) and the complexity of their TMS was significant. The monitoring equipment alone was more than "a few hundred"

I suppose so, but EVs first need to grow beyond their niche status before that level of options can be offered.

Now that Nissan has gone TMS, I am seeing quite a number of people who prefer to pay less and deal with TMSless packs for a MUCH lower price. Yeah, part of it is fueled by Nissan's fire sale prices but eventually manufacturers are going to realize that the sub $25,000 EV crowd is one hell of a lot bigger than the rest of the market.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Do we think 2021 will be the last year for the Leaf? They just introduced the car this year to another dozen markets. I would like to see them re-price the car to be in the 20-30K range, so it could like along side the Ariya for a while.

 

[OrientExpress]

The current LEAF still has some time left, but it will eventually be replaced by a car that is built on the new Renault/Nissan platform that is the basis for the Ariya.

 

[mtndrew1]

The current LEAF still has some time left, but it will eventually be replaced by a car that is built on the new Renault/Nissan platform that is the basis for the Ariya.

Will the Leaf be moving to CCS for the NA and EU markets for the 2021 model year?

 

[OrientExpress]

For the existing car, I don't know, But I doubt it. When the LEAF is updated on the new platform It will also have features updates.

When I asked Nissan about the LEAFs future last month, they said that it Will continue to be produced.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Do we think 2021 will be the last year for the Leaf? They just introduced the car this year to another dozen markets. I would like to see them re-price the car to be in the 20-30K range, so it could like along side the Ariya for a while.

Nissan has stated they will have over a half dozen full EVs out by 2022 besides the Ariya so probably end of LEAF as we know it replaced by something very likely similar but following the skateboard platform.

Another question;

is it "R E Ya" or "Ah Rye a"

 

[webeleafowners]

Do we think 2021 will be the last year for the Leaf? They just introduced the car this year to another dozen markets. I would like to see them re-price the car to be in the 20-30K range, so it could like along side the Ariya for a while.

Nissan has stated they will have over a half dozen full EVs out by 2022 besides the Ariya so probably end of LEAF as we know it replaced by something very likely similar but following the skateboard platform.

Another question;

is it "Ari Ya" or "Ah Rye a"

Yes.

 

[jdcbomb]

[/quote]

Is it "Ari Ya" or "Ah Rye a"

[/quote]

3 parts with emphasis on the first syllable.

AHHHHHHHH riiii yah

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Do we think 2021 will be the last year for the Leaf? They just introduced the car this year to another dozen markets. I would like to see them re-price the car to be in the 20-30K range, so it could like along side the Ariya for a while.

Nissan has stated they will have over a half dozen full EVs out by 2022 besides the Ariya so probably end of LEAF as we know it replaced by something very likely similar but following the skateboard platform.

Another question;

is it "Ari Ya" or "Ah Rye a"

Yes.

That would seem to be the correct answer as I have heard both several times. This seems to be a popular name for Nissan as the 2018 reveal in Vegas was held at the Aria hotel

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Is it "Ari Ya" or "Ah Rye a"

[/quote]

3 parts with emphasis on the first syllable.

AHHHHHHHH riiii yah
[/quote]

so not "R E ya"

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Interesting times in so many ways. Kudos to Nissan for rolling out a new vehicle in the midst of all the crisis at so many levels. Looks like a great vehicle, hopefully they nail the initial quality and earn a nice reception.

You aren't going to out-Tesla Tesla, so I think it wise to aim to fill another adjacent niche, which it looks to me like they're attempting. I like the compromise of clean interior looks without sacrificing additional haptic controls. Great, clean modern look, but not the ergonomic problems of an over-used touch screen. (I've posted before about how the extreme interface design in the Teslas is a deal killer for me out of ergonomic considerations.) Fold flat rear seat is also a plus.

As to the Leaf, I'd like to see it continue for a few more years with minor low-cost enhancements, and come down some in price. Not sure they can make money on it that way though. Hopefully their battery cost is falling internally. I think if they knocked $4-5k off of list, it might do well enough to justify itself.