Official Tesla Model 3 thread

[SageBrush]

Will someone explain to me why TSLA is even building a RWD model 3?

The efficiency penalty on all 2WD BEVs from being limited to only a single axle ratio in propulsion, is compounded by the efficiency limitations in any RWD BEV like the 3, during regenerative braking.

Not to mention the improved handling and performance from AWD.

The marginal cost of adding the second drive axle can only be a few thousand dollars, given the offsetting cost reduction from standardization.

No one outside Tesla knows the marginal cost of AWD. Not even you.
The RWD handling is superb in the Model S, and according to reviews superb in the Model 3 as well. Your 'expertise' is falling on deaf ears.
Although not confirmed, the efficiency of the 220 mile model 3 is thought to be 225 Wh/mile. Your presumptions are misplaced. The Model S AWD has better efficiency because the second motor is smaller. That situation of having one extremely powerful motor that is relatively inefficient as low loads is not present in the Model 3.

 

[abasile]

... the 3 motor is PM ...

I assume PM = "permanent magnet"? I thought Tesla was sticking with AC induction. Do you have a source for this? All I see is rumors of a possible switch to PM.

The Model S AWD has better efficiency because the second motor is smaller. That situation of having one extremely powerful motor that is relatively inefficient as low loads is not present in the Model 3.

Even with two equally-sized motors, my impression is that efficiency gains should be possible with dual motor AWD because the front and rear motors can have different gear ratios. So you effectively have the benefits of a two-speed transmission without the overhead of an actual transmission. Don't the dual motor, non-Performance Model Ses have two smaller motors? (I'm not 100% sure.)

 

[lorenfb]

In the Model 3 the AWD version will be the same but also be needed for more performance as the 3 motor is PM and pushed much harder, thus any performance version of the 3 will need a second motor unlike the S. The efficiency of the new motor is part of the range boost equation. There are many big changes from the S/X architecture.

Please provide the reference/link for this.

 

[edatoakrun]

Will someone explain to me why TSLA is even building a RWD model 3?

The efficiency penalty on all 2WD BEVs from being limited to only a single axle ratio in propulsion, is compounded by the efficiency limitations in any RWD BEV like the 3, during regenerative braking.

Not to mention the improved handling and performance from AWD.

The marginal cost of adding the second drive axle can only be a few thousand dollars, given the offsetting cost reduction from standardization.

No one outside Tesla knows the marginal cost of AWD. Not even you...

Do you think TSLA did not make a significant profit when it used to charge $5k for the AWD option on the S?

Do you not think TSLA will have much lower costs when it introduces the E's AWD system?

="SageBrush"...The RWD handling is superb in the Model S...

Apparently, not "superb" enough to prevent obsolescence, at least as TSLA sees it.

="SageBrush"...The Model S AWD has better efficiency because the second motor is smaller...

To improve your understanding of model S efficiency, you might want to look at:

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Tesla-AWD-more-efficient-than-its-RWD

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102834_all-wheel-drive-tesla-electric-cars-rated-more-efficient-but-how

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/why-does-dual-motor-get-better-mileage

Below are the efficiency ratings of the RWD and AWD S75s compared:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38524&id=38558

Notice the ~5% improvement in efficiency (and ~4% in range) in both city and highway cycles.

The primary cause of AWD efficiency increase in the city cycle is the higher rate of regen efficiency, which is severely limited in a RWD BEV by the inability to recapture energy from the front wheels while braking.

The primary increase in AWD efficiency on the highway cycle is by predominately utilizing the higher-geared motor at higher speeds.

No reason not to expect the efficiency improvement from AWD on the E to be about the same.

But me may not know for another year, or even longer.

Hell, TSLA won't even say when it will disclose the efficiency of the RWD E and it claims to already be "selling" them...

 

[EVDRIVER]

In the Model 3 the AWD version will be the same but also be needed for more performance as the 3 motor is PM and pushed much harder, thus any performance version of the 3 will need a second motor unlike the S. The efficiency of the new motor is part of the range boost equation. There are many big changes from the S/X architecture.

Please provide the reference/link for this.

It will be the same in terms of general benefits. What do you mean specifically?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Will someone explain to me why TSLA is even building a RWD model 3?

The efficiency penalty on all 2WD BEVs from being limited to only a single axle ratio in propulsion, is compounded by the efficiency limitations in any RWD BEV like the 3, during regenerative braking.

Not to mention the improved handling and performance from AWD.

The marginal cost of adding the second drive axle can only be a few thousand dollars, given the offsetting cost reduction from standardization.

No one outside Tesla knows the marginal cost of AWD. Not even you...

Do you think TSLA did not make a significant profit when it used to charge $5k for the AWD option on the S?

Do you not think TSLA will have much lower costs when it introduces the E's AWD system?

="SageBrush"...The RWD handling is superb in the Model S...

Apparently, not "superb" enough to prevent obsolescence, at least as TSLA sees it.

="SageBrush"...The Model S AWD has better efficiency because the second motor is smaller...

To improve your understanding of model S efficiency, you might want to look at:

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Tesla-AWD-more-efficient-than-its-RWD

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102834_all-wheel-drive-tesla-electric-cars-rated-more-efficient-but-how

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/why-does-dual-motor-get-better-mileage

Below are the efficiency ratings of the RWD and AWD S75s compared:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38524&id=38558

Notice the ~5% improvement in efficiency (and ~4% in range) in both city and highway cycles.

The primary cause of AWD efficiency increase in the city cycle is the higher rate of regen efficiency, which is severely limited in a RWD BEV by the inability to recapture energy from the front wheels while braking.

The primary increase in AWD efficiency on the highway cycle is by predominately utilizing the higher-geared motor at higher speeds.

No reason not to expect the efficiency improvement from AWD on the E to be about the same.

But me may not know for another year, or even longer.

Hell, TSLA won't even say when it will disclose the efficiency of the RWD E and it claims to already be "selling" them...

Unless the regen exceeds the breaking point of traction this is not true. Compare the max output of regen on both vehicles. Off pedal on my 85D is very good but drops on braking. I think that max rating is comparable to the RWD models since the max regen does not exceed the max rating capable on the RWD models. The front motor does the additional efficiency however with the PM motor on the 3 it may be much better IF they use a smaller front motor but it seems they would use the same motor in the front and give a performance and traction option.

 

[lorenfb]

In the Model 3 the AWD version will be the same but also be needed for more performance as the 3 motor is PM and pushed much harder, thus any performance version of the 3 will need a second motor unlike the S. The efficiency of the new motor is part of the range boost equation. There are many big changes from the S/X architecture.

Please provide the reference/link for this.

It will be the same in terms of general benefits. What do you mean specifically?

Sorry. Where the info is on the motor being a PM versus the S/X induction type.

 

[EVDRIVER]

It's not posted, It is a PM

 

[TomT]

All other considerations aside, I've always preferred RWD, or at least rear biased AWD... I least like FWD.

 

[lorenfb]

It's not posted, It is a PM

How would Nikola feel about that, knowing a car named after him uses basically a DC motor (brushless)?

 

[scottf200]

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-touchscreen-display-ui-simulator/

Interact: https://projects.invisionapp.com/share/DPCUX2ETA#/screens/246644259_Parked

The LCD touchscreen is lauded as the command center of the new luxury, mass market EV — it’s the brains behind a Tesla driver’s entire user experience.

Drivers will be able to adjust mirrors, control air conditioning and vents, play music, as well as adjust seat positions, lights and even steering wheel height.

The LCD simulation also shows options to lock the car, change the steering and regenerative braking settings, adjust interior temperature, and deploy the parking brake.

These, of course, all just the extra features on top of the GPS and navigation systems.

The screen has changed the entire minimalistic dashboard of the Model 3 compared to other vehicles. Reviewers have raved about the austere, elegant and relaxed feel of the Model 3’s dash.

 

[evnow]

Interact: https://projects.invisionapp.com/share/DPCUX2ETA#/screens/246644259_Parked

...
These, of course, all just the extra features on top of the GPS and navigation systems.
....

The future is voice. Doing all this on the screen (so not that much use for muscle memory) won't be safer.

 

[scottf200]

Interact: https://projects.invisionapp.com/share/DPCUX2ETA#/screens/246644259_Parked

...
These, of course, all just the extra features on top of the GPS and navigation systems.
....

The future is voice. Doing all this on the screen (so not that much use for muscle memory) won't be safer.

No reason you can't have both. Tesla OTA allows for constant improvements... that is if many voice commands are not already in the Model 3 (ie. change following distance to 4; navigate to 123 street/starbuck; change temp to 71; set drivers profile to 'roadtrip' (secondary one I had for leaned back seat and steerwheel extended more) ). This UI is so much friendlier and readable (small screen plus they like cluttering it with other info) than my 1st or 2nd generation Volts that it is ridiculous. Android Auto in the Gen 2 is helpful for some specific things (Waze is now there and we used it last week - allows 3 route options to same place).

 

[abasile]

The future is voice. Doing all this on the screen (so not that much use for muscle memory) won't be safer.

I agree with Scott that having both voice and screen-based controls makes sense - what if the driver has a bad sore throat, for instance? :lol:

Don't forget that the steering wheel also has two dimensional controls that can be used for common adjustments.

 

[edatoakrun]

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-touchscreen-display-ui-simulator/

Interact: https://projects.invisionapp.com/share/DPCUX2ETA#/screens/246644259_Parked

The LCD touchscreen is lauded as the command center of the new luxury, mass market EV — it’s the brains behind a Tesla driver’s entire user experience.

Drivers will be able to adjust mirrors, control air conditioning and vents, play music, as well as adjust seat positions, lights and even steering wheel height.

The LCD simulation also shows options to lock the car, change the steering and regenerative braking settings, adjust interior temperature, and deploy the parking brake.

These, of course, all just the extra features on top of the GPS and navigation systems.

The screen has changed the entire minimalistic dashboard of the Model 3 compared to other vehicles. Reviewers have raved about the austere, elegant and relaxed feel of the Model 3’s dash.

When TSLA first revealed the model 3 blank dash/center screen concept, no one on this thread could seem to explain the benefits, other than it being cheaper to manufacture.

But if it does have some other advantage over conventional designs, when can we expect the S and X models to adopt the new-and-improved "...brains behind a Tesla driver’s entire user experience..."?

 

[GRA]

Discussion on TMC about which options people want. Seems like plenty of people are fine with RWD: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/here-is-why-im-getting-the-bare-bones-35k-t3.95018/

 

[lpickup]

Will someone explain to me why TSLA is even building a RWD model 3?

Late to the discussion here...

Other than the potential for increased range, I have absolutely zero need for AWD. Somehow I've managed to drive cars for the past 30+ years that were mostly 2WD--mostly FWD, but I even drove a RWD Nissan 240SX for 10 years while living in Vermont (and taking it to the ski areas). I did own a 4WD Jeep Cherokee at one time (but it was my wife's driver), and ironically that is the only vehicle I've ever gone off the road in due to road conditions (driver ahead of me went into the bank and I had to make a split second decision to ditch the Jeep into a snow bank vs. plowing into the car ahead of me).

Now that I live in the south with practically no hills (much less mountains), and because the 310 mile range of the long range Model 3 is actually more than I expected/needed for trips, it would be a pretty tough sell for someone like me.

 

[EVDRIVER]

AWD Model 3 will be the performance 3 and will be required unlike on the S. All S and X models will only be AWD to segment them. Has anyone noticed that the air suspension is standard on all 3 cars and was a $2500 option on an S?

 

[lpickup]

but they were probably close enough that it would make sense to forge ahead and cross 200K in the first few weeks of January.

Dream On (cross 200K 1/2018)!

Based on latest (July) sales estimates combined with updated S curve estimates, it's looking more to me like Tesla's YE US count will be around 173K (best case). We probably won't get a really good gauge on how the ramp is going until early October. Given that we are looking at mid-Feb as a best case date (and let's say end of Feb more likely) for crossing 200K, it appears more and more likely to me that Tesla will certainly try to delay crossing that point until April. Probably through a combination of diverting S/X to overseas and stockpiling 3's, which would also help with maximizing the # who get the credit, obviously at the expense of annoying customers with potential March delivery slots. If I had to guess, they would handle this simply by not giving late Feb/March delivery slots and just stating "April", so buyers wouldn't necessarily realize whether or not they could've had a March delivery slot.

Forgotten the Model X actual production ramp versus Elon's 'Curve' ?

If the Model 3 had its own version of "falcon wing doors", this statement would have more weight. I'm pretty sure he learned his lesson with the X!

 

[edatoakrun]

Will someone explain to me why TSLA is even building a RWD model 3?

Late to the discussion here...

Other than the potential for increased range, I have absolutely zero need for AWD.

... because the 310 mile range of the long range Model 3 is actually more than I expected/needed for trips, it would be a pretty tough sell for someone like me.

Maybe not so tough.

Once the # AWD base model battery 3 range is announced, you'll decide that it has all the range you need.

If so, you may save ~$5k to $6k when you buy, and due to the increased efficiency, you'll definitely save more $ every time you charge.